Room Conversation Prabhupada: Vivekananda has influence here in higher class, among the educated class. They talk about Vivekananda and this and that, nonsense. In your country, fortunately, that opposition was not there. There was no influence of Vivekananda class men. Here amongst the educated class there is influence of all these rascals, Vivekananda, Aurobindo, and… That is one defect. But in the mass there is no influence. In the class, educated class. Because educated class means wine, women, meat, and Vivekananda allows this. That is the point. Vivekananda has no distinction of eating. “Eat any… All Brahman, all Narayana. You are Narayana. Goat is Narayana. So Narayana is going in the belly of Narayana. What is the wrong? One Narayana is going, being absorbed by another Narayana.” But he is not agreeable to be eaten by a tiger, another tiger Narayana. Hamsaduta: They actually say that? Prabhupada: Yes. Hamsaduta: “One Narayana is being absorbed by another.” Prabhupada: One respectable pleader in Allahabad, I said, “Why you are eating this?” We also find that he’s a very religious man. So I inquired. He was just like our father; still, I inquired. He said, “No, what is the wrong there? Narayana, Brahman. So one Brahman is going into the belly of another Brahman, Brahman being absorbed, brahmeti.” So they have got so dangerous theory. But still, we shall not hesitate to kick on their face but because they are making a propaganda, it should be peaceful. But I become very much agitated with this nonsense because I know they are creating havoc. Hare Krsna. Come on. (door closes) So many rascals. Hare Krsna Hare Krsna… Hamsaduta: So yesterday we went to that place, that swami with the silver glasses and black beard that always gives his respect to you. Prabhupada: Yes. Hamsaduta: Well, he has become head swami of this temple, very big, very nice place. Prabhupada: Very nice place? Hamsaduta: Yes. Hodgepodge but very… Prabhupada: They have. Hamsaduta: Yes. Yes. A big marble statue of Buddha, very costly, and tiles from Japan. Prabhupada: Tiles? Devotee (1): This temple is made by one American. Hamsaduta: By an American? Devotee (1): I was told it was built by one American. I don’t know who. Prabhupada: So why not give us that place? Hamsaduta: I don’t think he’s prepared to do that. Prabhupada: They have residential quarters? They have made some residential quarter? Hamsaduta: I didn’t see any residential quarter. Mostly temple. Prabhupada: Very big temple? Hamsaduta: It’s one big temple with different rooms. Very large, very nice. Prabhupada: Better than this Gita Bhavan? Hamsaduta: No, I don’t think it’s better than Gita Bhavan. Prabhupada: It was simply attempted, not finished. Hamsaduta: Not finished. Prabhupada: Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna… Oh, thank you. Why not spread those blankets? Then you can… They are being used? Hamsaduta: There is a blanket in your room. Prabhupada: Blanket or mattress. Hamsaduta: They have blankets in their rooms. They left them in their rooms. Prabhupada: Bring mattress and spread. (Hindi) Sit down. This is comfortable. Guest (1): In God’s temple, what human wants? And what type of life he wants so that he can be happy? Prabhupada: Not upon that. You spread separately. You have no bed sheet? Bed sheet you can spread. The human demand is happiness. Guest (1): Happiness, yes. But happiness means increase in which is already happy. It is… Prabhupada: Yes. Now, the thing is, what is that happiness? That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriya-grahyam: “The absolute happiness or the perpetual happiness or the greatest happiness is that which is enjoyed by supernatural senses.” Guest (1): Would that be by all the senses—mind, intelligence…? Prabhupada: Yes, everything but in their supernatural, not in this condition. Guest (1): Not in this? Prabhupada: Condition. Guest (1): You see, otherwise it is said that when a person is happy with the self, happy with others… Prabhupada: No, no. No, no. Try to understand. He has got his senses. These senses are now covered with the coating of material conception of life. Therefore this sense pleasure is not complete or perfect. Just like everyone has got… Now, you have got your tongue. Now, the tongue, when it is coated you cannot taste the things. So the coating is maya. Guest (1): What I was, missing me was in this degree, that just like here, people, why we are, we got the news in our senses, our mind sees or perceives… Prabhupada: These are living, symptoms of living condition. Guest (1): Living condition. So, but we are not affected by air, which is most required and most special for our use. Because it is abundant, and it will be given to every person at all the times, in all circumstances, therefore we do not keep it under lock and key. Western countries, though they have… Prabhupada: No, no. There is no question of Western-Eastern. Guest (1): No, I was speaking of materialism and spiritualism. I was talking on that point, that though we see, I mean, I don’t say have made it, but yet because there is no what kind of life they want, or in our Eastern countries, because they are… Prabhupada: No, no. If you study the whole thing in that way— Western-Eastern… There is no question of Western-Eastern. It is the question of the living entity. Guest (1): Yes, how to live in such a way where there is no dearth of thing as well as there is no continuing of that need that a man becomes lost? That is the… Prabhupada: That is the point. Guest (1): That is the point. And for that, what kind of spiritual should we lead? Prabhupada: That is… That I am going to explain, that… That is one line: sukham atyantikam yat tad atindriya-grahyam. This sukham atyantikam is being searched both by the Western, Eastern, everyone, even cats, dogs, everyone. But the cats and dogs, animals, they cannot adjust what is that atyantikam sukham. But human being can. So human being, there is no question of Eastern and Western. It is a question of degree only. But actually everyone is searching after that perpetual happiness. So it is a problem for everyone, and that problem can be solved by Krsna consciousness. Guest (1): By? Prabhupada: Krsna consciousness. This is the…, I mean to say, a rough scheme, rough estimation. Now, how Krsna consciousness can solve this problem, that is a detailed thing. But this is a fact. It is not the question of Eastern-Western. It is the problem of all living entities. Guest (1): Yes, living entities. Human, actually we have. Prabhupada: Not even human life, even animal life. There are 8,400,000s of different kinds of bodies. So this is a problem for everyone. Now in other species of life than the human form, they cannot solve. They have no power. But a human being can solve. Guest (1): Yes, they have got understanding. Prabhupada: Yes. And that solution is Krsna consciousness. Guest (1): What do you mean by that? Prabhupada: That is a detailed question, “How it can be?” Guest (1): No, but are we satisfied with the past… Prabhupada: You will be never satisfied without Krsna consciousness. Guest (1): What I mean was it really or were we at that time…? Prabhupada: Which time? What do you mean “that time”? Guest (1): That time means at the time of Lord Krsna. Were we completely… Prabhupada: At the time of Krsna… You are taking simply the portion of the time when Krsna was present. You are saying about that. But Krsna is present always. Guest (1): Yes, but if you say that, in that way, then he gets because… Prabhupada: Just like Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita, raso ’ham apsu kaunteya: “I am the taste in the water.” Now, this taste in the water is perpetual. When Krsna was physically present or Krsna is not physically present, this is a perpetual fact. Is it not? Do you think the taste in the water was different when Krsna was present and the taste of water is different now? Guest (1): No, it cannot be. Prabhupada: Similarly, He says, prabhasmi sasi-suryayoh: “I am the shining of the sun and the moon.” In this way, if you study what is Krsna consciousness, then you’ll find that Krsna consciousness is the only solution for that highest perfectional stage of happiness. Guest (1): We are giving names; therefore we become confused because in our God incarnation… Prabhupada: No, no. If there is name why you be confused? If your name is Mr. such and such but you do not know the name, that is the confusion. Guest (1): Because so many names have been given to these same things… Prabhupada: But that is in the sastra it is said, “There are so many names of God. Out of all of them, Krsna is the principal.” God’s name is given… Just like Krsna appeared as the son of Vasudeva; therefore He is called Vasudeva. Krsna played in Vrndavana as the son of Nanda Maharaja and Yasoda; therefore He is called Yasoda- nandana. Krsna acted as the driver, chariot driver Arjuna. Therefore He is known as Partha-sarathi. So His name… All these names are according to His different activities. So He has got unlimited activities, and therefore He has got unlimited names. So out of all these names, Krsna is the supreme or the prime because Krsna means all-attractive. Krsna means all-attractive. So God, if God is not all-attractive, He cannot be God. So one God is attractive for me, another God is attractive for… He is not supreme God. Guest (1): Reason we take the name of the God or anything is to achieve the supreme happiness or… Prabhupada: That supreme happiness is different thing. We are talking of God’s name. First of all let us understand that God’s name, we have different God’s name according to God’s activities. Madhusudana. Because He killed the demon Madhu, therefore His name is Madhusudana. Madhava. Because He is the husband of goddess of fortune—Ma means goddess of fortune—therefore He is Madhava. All the names you analyze. Similarly, Krsna is also the name of God because He is all-attractive. Now, how you can deny that God is not all-attractive? Is it possible? God is all-attractive. Can you deny this fact? Guest (1): No, there is no denying, you see, because we only know that all-attractiveness in Syamasundaram. Prabhupada: Syamasundaram… But the Syamasundaram means He is blackish, still, He is so beautiful that thousands of Cupids cannot be compared with Him. Kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham [Bs. 5.30]. Kandarpa-koti. Cupid is supposed to be the most beautiful, but about Krsna it is stated that: venum kvanantam aravinda-dalayataksam barhavatamsam asitambuda-sundarangam kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.30] Venum kvanantam: He is playing on flute. Aravinda-dalayataksam: His eyes are just like petals of the lotus flower. Barhavatamsam: He has got a peacock feather on His head. Asitambuda: and His color is just like black cloud. Sundarangam: but His beauty, total beauty is kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham [Bs. 5.30] Still, the beauty… As soon as we say blackish, we think that he… If somebody is blackish, he is not beautiful. Guest (1): That is also charm in that. Prabhupada: Yes. But still, He’s still charming. Because it is all transcendental, we cannot compare the blackish cloud. It is simply given, an idea, that it is like blackish cloud. But immediately it is said, still, kandarpa-koti-kamaniya-visesa-sobham govindam adi-purusam tam aham bhajami [Bs. 5.30]. So God has many names, and according to your conception, you can have God’s name also. But out of all those names, many thousands and unlimited different types of names, Krsna is the principal name because Krsna means all-attractive. You cannot say that God is not all-attractive. And if you use that sense, all-attractive, this is the word, Krsna. Guest (1): What I was… You see, I was trying to… Prabhupada: Now, the difficulty is don’t try to invent something about God. That is not good. Guest (1): No, not invention. Prabhupada: No, you have to take the version of the sastras; then it will be possible. If you invent something, try to speculate on something, it will not be successful. Guest (1): I’m not, you see… In the middle, I may be speculating or you see, trying to… Coming to the human aspect itself, now so many want happiness. Happiness is checked up because of… Prabhupada: That material coating. Guest (1): Material things. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): Now, we want… Because this want is there… Want is made by own nature and there is no way throughout our… Now when we earning means there’s so much contami…, mean, sea of… Prabhupada: That is not happiness. Guest (1): I am just coming to that. I was… Prabhupada: Yes. Now, one point is that earning or begging—beg, borrow or steal—that is not happiness. Because to acquire a standard of happiness you have to beg, you have to earn, or you have to steal, so that is not happiness. Guest (1): No. What I am saying is that as long as a man lives… Prabhupada: But we are not talking of “as long as man lives.” He lives eternally. Guest (1): Yes, it is eternal. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): And it is eternal bondage there. Prabhupada: No. Bondage for so long you are in this material bondage. Guest (1): In some form… Prabhupada: No, first of all you have to understand in the spiritual… Guest (1): Yes, even there is spiritual form, one has to live in certain form, without which… Prabhupada: That is natural form. That is not a conventional form. Just like you have dressed yourself with black coat. It is not your natural form. So material… Guest (1): Has spirit no want? Prabhupada: Yes, no want. Guest (1): Without it, you see… Prabhupada: Everything you desire, it is present immediately. Guest (1): You mean the spirit has got subtle form, though it may be exact form? Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Yes. Guest (1): Though mind has got no form outside but mind has a form. Prabhupada: The spirit, he has a form. Guest (1): Intelligence is also accepting… Prabhupada: These are different coating. Just like you have got your form, therefore your coat has got a form. Guest (1): No, I was thinking in this form. Prabhupada: Don’t think like that way. First of all you try to understand. Because you have got a form, your coat has got a form. You try to understand this. Guest (1): Yes, water, though may not have form, but it has got form. Prabhupada: Why may not? You try to understand practically. You have got a form, therefore your shirt has got a form, your coat has got a form. Guest (1): That spirit has this form, no? Prabhupada: Yes. So because originally you have got hand, your coat has got hand. Because originally you have got hand, your shirt has got hand. Therefore this form, the material form which you are seeing, it is coating only. Guest (1): Material form of what? Prabhupada: You, me, everything. Guest (1): No, “me” means what? A spirit? Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): That is what I say. Any spirit will have certain form. Prabhupada: Not certain form. He has got his original form. Guest (1): Original means all the… We are living from the eternal… Prabhupada: Yes. Eternally you have got a form. Guest (1): From the eternal we have got certain form. Prabhupada: That is material. Past certain form, that is material. But you have got an original spiritual form. Guest (1): Spiritual form is there but due to the bond man has taken this form. Prabhupada: This form is being developed according to your mental condition. Guest (1): Mental conditions are due to want. Prabhupada: Subtle form, subtle form. Guest (1): Those are again due to want. Prabhupada: Due to want? Yes. Guest (1): All these forms are due to want. Prabhupada: Want. That want because you are in the material condition. Guest (1): Every person in a material… Spirit in matter remains because both are there. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Guest (1): Now, as we have got a material form… Prabhupada: Spirit has got no material form. Spirit has got spiritual form. Guest (1): Spiritual form but yet also it has got a material form. Prabhupada: Because he has come… Just like you have accepted this kind of coat. I have got a different kind of coat. She has got a different kind of coat. Guest (1): Yes. According to that there is… Prabhupada: Yes. So as I liked, so I have got shirt and coat. This is material. But originally, spiritual form is the same as you have got, I have got, she has got a form, everyone. That is original form. Guest (1): Now, our question… (indistinct) We try. Now, question of earning also, the definition is not here, being… Prabhupada: The question of earning comes so long you have got this material form. But from the spiritual form there is no question of earning. Guest (1): In what way we will live in that spiritual form? Prabhupada: That you have to know. That you have to know. Ananda-cinmaya-rasa-pratibhavitabhih. That spiritual form means complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity. Guest (1): Turiya. Prabhupada: Turiya, yes. Guest (1): In that turiya… Prabhupada: This is turiya life, complete blissfulness, complete knowledge, and eternity. Guest (1): You see, because it is a creation of the world… (indistinct) And that means that matter is there. Prabhupada: Yes. Matter is always there. Guest (1): Ah. We want to live and enjoy, therefore this universe and all these things. Now, in what perfect form? Because everywhere, in everything, there is a best. Now how everything should take? Prabhupada: Yes. Yes. Guest (1): The universal form should come to the best. That is the point. Prabhupada: Don’t talk of universal form. First of all talk of your form. Try to understand your form. Then go universal. Guest (1): Am I separate from matter. Prabhupada: You are not separate. Are you not separate? Then why you are talking with me? Are you not separate with me? Why you have come to inquire from me? Guest (1): No, no, because we… Prabhupada: First of all try to… Are you not separate from me? Guest (1): In material way, yes. Prabhupada: Any way. Any way, are you not separate from me? Guest (1): Yes, every drop is separate from one another. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Every individual person is separate from one another, every individual person. So how do you say they are one? Guest (1): Every individual is separate, but when we come in the prema… Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): Then every person, until it is the best… Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): …is just an object of…(?) Prabhupada: Yes. That is possible. Even… Don’t think that when that stage will come there will be no individuality. Guest (1): Individuality will be there. I do not say that it will not be there. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): What I was saying was particular individual in a particular way. Therefore the shape of world is in today is off. But if every individual takes the destined way, which is good enough for every person, then all things can change at once. Prabhupada: Now, why do you way that thinking will be stopped? Guest (1): I do not say, sir. I… Prabhupada: So then you say who will think? Thinking will be there, individuality will be there, but there will be no disagreement. Guest (1): Individuality will be there for the self as well as for all. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): That is what I mean. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): Now, how that kind of living or what kind of religion is that, on that… Prabhupada: That you have to learn from the authorized Vedic literature. You cannot imagine. You cannot speculate. You have to learn from authority. Guest (1): Authority… Prabhupada: Yes. Suppose if you want to go to Germany. Now you have no idea how the German people live or their, how they are, what is their culture. So you have to learn. Here is a boy, German. You have to learn from him what kind of life there is. Similarly, there is a life like that. Now, what kind of life that is, we have to ask from a person who has realized that life. Guest (1): There are two things. I am still, I’m still… that we are raised upon this material life (indistinct) that may be available just like air. Air we do not keep the air under lock and key. There is no dearth of time, no dearth of energy, no dearth of resources. Only dearth is that we have no clear perspective (indistinct) we are under control. (indistinct) in the only because of our other and therefore we have become confused. So from Buddha’s time we wanted there should be no sickness, old age, and death, etc. But it is continuing. There is no such country… Prabhupada: But how do you respect these words of Lord Buddha, first thing is. Guest (1): No, I have got one thing, you see, that it is through the diffusion… Prabhupada: No, no, no. Lord Buddha, we have to accept him as an authority, Lord Buddha. Now, he gives you idea that no misery. So how do you accept these words of Lord Buddha? Guest (1): No, I do not because that was not…, has not come into… Prabhupada: Yes. That means he was giving that hint in spiritual life, not in this life. Guest (1): Yes. So I wondered that if we can create, when we are free from this and we do not fight on the air. We fight on the things which are scarce. And why there is a scarcity? Because we are not (indistinct) people. Therefore there is a scarcity. If we think on that point and all this is clear, then, when there is no want of life of a material even, then only, every person rises himself from this material… Prabhupada: First thing is… May I ask your name? Guest (1): Bateriya. Prabhupada: Batel. Guest (1): Bateriya. Prabhupada: Bateriya. You belong to this province? Guest (1): No, I came from Sindh, Karachi. Prabhupada: Oh, Bateriya. So Mr. Bateriya, this process, this transcendental knowledge, super, superhuman knowledge, you cannot think first of all. You cannot think. You have to learn. Guest (1): To realize all these things. Prabhupada: Realize after learning from the authority. Guest (1): Because you see, this question I have asked from 1939… There was a little problem in Karachi. I was very fond of my father. He died when I was only ten. I thought on, “What is this?” and all these things. “Why we are, humanity is suffering all these things?” It was this question in my mind and what other, I thought of these problems. This appeared as invisible, you see, and material, but to me, inside, it is, you see, a teaching because it was not taught for any individual or for any kind of… It is taught for all men beyond the world so that we can bring that kind of life… Prabhupada: No, you are thinking from your side. Guest (1): Not from my…, as a particular person but as of the, our own humanity, as a spiritualist. Prabhupada: The spiritual knowledge is called tat knowledge, tat, om tat sat. Guest (1): Om tat sat. Aham brahmasmi. Prabhupada: Yes. Om tat sat. So the tat knowledge is recommended in the Bhagavad-gita, tad-viddhi. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Pranipatena. You understand pranipata? Surrender. Guest (1): Surrender. Prabhupada: So tad viddhi. If you want to understand that transcendental knowledge, then you have to accept this process, pranipata. Pranipata means surrender, and surrender means there must be somebody to whom you surrender. Guest (1): Whom you surrender, yes. Prabhupada: There are two, not alone. So you cannot alone think of tat knowledge. You have to surrender to somebody. That is the process. Guest (1): There are eight kinds of getting the knowledge, means bhakti… Prabhupada: No, no. Bhakti is a process. Bhakti is not knowledge. That knowledge you acquire by your sense perception, and bhakti is the pure activities of the senses. Guest (1): No, surrender means bhakti. One surrenders to… Prabhupada: No question of bhakti. That is the process. If you want to know about tat, then that is the process. You have to surrender. So long you will think that “I can think of, I have got power,” you’ll be failed. Guest (1): That consideration of “myself, I am thinking,” that is not there. Prabhupada: Then who is thinking? Guest (1): Thinking means… Prabhupada: No, no, don’t use abstract knowledge. As soon as you are thinking, you are thinking. Guest (1): No, that sometimes thinking, when you are listening inside you… Prabhupada: Anyway, listening or thinking, these are different process of acquiring knowledge, but you are doing that. Guest (1): Yes, my outer form is doing that. Prabhupada: Yes. Guest (1): But inner form may be… Prabhupada: What is that inner form? You are inner form. Your outer, your coat, is not thinking. Your shirt is not thinking. What you mean by outward, inward? Inward you are. Outward your coat and shirt. Do you think your coat and shirt is thinking? You are thinking. Guest (1): Yes, I am thinking, but, you see… Prabhupada: There is no “but.” You are thinking. Guest (1): I am thinking. One is at the lower level, and one is at the higher… Prabhupada: That is another thing. Either in the lower level or in the higher level, you are thinking. Guest (1): Yes, all right. Prabhupada: And therefore, because you are thinking in the lower level, therefore your thinking is imperfect. So to be in higher level, you have to surrender to a higher personality. Guest (1): Higher wouldn’t be better than that. Prabhupada: Just like child is thinking something. His thinking is lower level. But when he inquires from his father, that is higher level. The same thinking is he, but one stage his thinking is lower level; in another stage his thinking is higher level. But thinking always, he. Guest (1): Yes, thinking is his always. Prabhupada: Yes. So tat knowledge is higher level, and therefore you have to accept that tat knowledge from a higher level personality, not from by yourself, because you are in the lower level. Guest (1): No, how do we know lower level and higher level? Prabhupada: Because you do not know, therefore you… Why you are thinking? Because you do not know. Guest (1): No, it is not that… Prabhupada: Then there is no question of asking me. Then you think yourself. Guest (1): No, we were trying… Prabhupada: First of all you try to understand the principle. Why you have come to ask me? Guest (1): Not ask but just… Prabhupada: Because you are thinking on the lower level. Guest (1): No, no, to configure over it, not to ask or… Prabhupada: Why configure? Configure does not mean that you have thought something in lower level; I have to confirm that. Guest (1): Not even that. We have all… Prabhupada: Then, if you are thinking right, if you are thinking on the higher level, there is no question of coming to me. Guest (1): There is no question of coming or going. Just it was that… Prabhupada: Anyway, inquiry. Guest (1): No, no, spiritual endeavor. There is no use in that. It may be in lower level or higher level. Prabhupada: No, no. There is. There is. There is. Higher level, lower level, there is, as soon as there is thinking, feeling, and willing. These are the activities of the mind, and there is higher level, lower level, etc… Guest (1): In that we are missing the main twist out of whole thing. Prabhupada: So main twist… But main you are not missing. The point is that if you continue to think on the lower level, then how you can reach to the higher level? Guest (1): What is the distinction between higher and lower? Prabhupada: You do not know? A child is thinking. Guest (1): No, let us think of what is the highest thing. Prabhupada: That you have to learn from the highest man. Yes. That is Bhagavad-gita. Just like Bhagavad-gita says that tad viddhi: “You understand that transcendental knowledge by surrender.” So if you do not surrender, there is no possibility. Guest (1): But I might have surrendered myself to my own… Prabhupada: That is another foolishness. You are thinking lower level, and how you can surrender to yourself? Then how you can get advance? Your surrender means to a superior person, as soon as you call surrender. And without this, there is no possibility. tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah [Bg. 4.34] We have to accept these principles; otherwise how it can make the… There is no possibility. Just like if you want to be educated. You have to be admitted to an institution, in school, in a college. If you say, “I shall be educated at home,” that is not possible. Guest (1): Many have… Prabhupada: No “many.” This is the general process. Guest (1): No, general process sometimes have failed. Prabhupada: No, why fail? The schools are going on. Colleges are going on. Guest (1): Therefore they are fearing also… Prabhupada: Still, they are not closed. Guest (1): Closed… Today they are coming to that. Prabhupada: That is another theory. But the process is, our Vedic process, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva abhigacchet: [MU 1.2.12] “In order to understand tat knowledge one must approach a spiritual master.” Gacchet. If you don’t accept these principles, then how you can make progress? Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasur sreya uttamam [SB 11.3.21] If you don’t accept this principle, there is no possibility. Then you can go on thinking in your own way. There is no question of going to anyone. You make yourself perfect by thinking, as many others are doing, speculating. That is possible but never to the perfectional point. Guest (1): Perfectly, you see… What is the category of different perfection? Prabhupada: That you have to learn. That you have to learn. Guest (1): No, no, learn from whom? Prabhupada: From the higher authority. Guest (1): So how we know? Prabhupada: That is another thing, who is higher authority. That you have to search out. That you have to search out. Guest (1): We must understand what is higher person and what is lower and whether Buddha is correct or not. Prabhupada: Now, higher authority… Suppose we accept Krsna as the higher authority. Our, this Krsna consciousness movement, we accept Krsna as the higher authority. Guest (1): It is accepting. Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, we accept Krsna as the higher authority. Do you accept that? Guest (1): I mean, I am shown the form. You see… Prabhupada: There is no question of shown. Krsna is accepted higher authority not only by us by big acaryas like Sankaracarya, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, those who are guiding our Vedic life in India, Caitanya. So Krsna is accepted the highest authority. [break] Krsna in the Bhagavad-gita says, mattah parataram nasti: “There is no more higher authority than Me.” Then, if you don’t accept Krsna as the higher authority, that is your business, but we accept Krsna as the higher authority. Guest (1): So something is coming in that way because Krsna, that was what He had said in a particular time or country… Prabhupada: No, no, no. Authority means…, it does not mean a time. Guest (1): No, for that time. Prabhupada: No, no. First of all try, try… Authority means… Guest (1): For the time. Prabhupada: All the time. That is authority. Guest (1): No, but later, later many lights shining… Prabhupada: (knock on door) Yes, open it. Anyway, to make cut short, to make cut short, so far we are concerned, we have declared, “International Society for Krishna Consciousness.” Our process of propaganda is that Krsna is the highest authority. That is our… You may take it that we are limited; that is your business. But we have taken this. Now, if you don’t accept Krsna as the higher authority, then there is no question of inquiring from us. Guest (1): What is the form, you see, I mean… Prabhupada: Krsna is the form. Here is Krsna’s form. Guest (1): No, no, not that form. Prabhupada: Then what form? Guest (1): What I mean is we are accepting anything to bring ourselves to certain destination which will satisfy us all. For that we are… Prabhupada: Nothing can satisfy everyone. That is not possible. There is no such thing within this material world which can satisfy everyone. There is no such thing. Guest (1): Because we… Prabhupada: No, no, because… There may be so many “because.” But the fact is that there is nothing in this material world which can satisfy everyone. Guest (1): There can be a method which can… Prabhupada: Maybe, but we do not know. Guest (1): Therefore beyond that, you see, I came… Prabhupada: Just like Krsna. We accept Krsna the supreme authority. Krsna says, mam ekam saranam vraja. Who is accepting this? We have accepted. Some others may have accepted but you have not accepted. So therefore even Krsna’s injunction is not accepted by everyone, what to speak of others? So therefore you cannot find out within this material world anything which can satisfy everyone. That is not possible. Guest (1): We have not found that. Prabhupada: You may think, but we have concluded that there is nothing, such thing, which can satisfy everyone. It is not possible. Guest (1): Until we hear all, we may do that… Prabhupada: That may be an ideal, but we take Krsna as the highest authority. Even Krsna’s words are not accepted. That’s a fact. Krsna says, “You surrender unto Me.” So a few persons might have surrendered to Him. Even Krsna was present, only the Pandavas and the inhabitants of the Vrndavana and Dvaraka, some of them understood that Krsna is the Supreme. But many did not accept Him. Many insulted Him. Just like Sisupala insulted Him. So even Krsna could not be accepted. Guest (1): Accept, I accept everyone. That is no question of accepting or… Prabhupada: No, no, your… I have summarized that first of all you have come to inquire from us that our standard of knowledge is Krsna. If you accept Krsna as the standard of perfection of knowledge, then there is possibility of our talking. Otherwise simply waste of time. Why shall we waste our time? Our standard is Krsna. If you are agreeable to accept the standard of Krsna, then there is possibility. Just like here is a lawyer. He goes to the lawyer. He speaks, he pleads, on the standard of the lawbooks. If somebody comes, “No, no, I don’t accept this,” then there is no question of argument. Both the lawyers are arguing. The central point is the lawbook. So you must have a central point on which we shall talk. If you have no central point… Guest (1): Central point of happiness is there now. Prabhupada: Yes, your point is happiness; my point is happiness. That is all right. But what is that happiness? Just like the same example can be that two litigants, they have gone to the court. Their aim is justice. But how that justice can be had, that is an argument and on the point of law. Similarly, everyone’s point is happiness. And what is that standard of happiness, that you have to take from some authority. That authority we accept, Krsna. And if you don’t accept Krsna, then we cannot come to the conclusion what is happiness. So you will simply waste our time. Begin arati. [break] You see? It was… Sometimes the light was coming, sometimes… That means they were adjusting. There was some meeting, adjusting. As soon as it is coming to the real point it was light. And as soon as not in the real point there is no light. So it is a science. Therefore the Vedas says, tad-vijnanam It is a vijnana. It is not a theoretical, whimsical… Guest (1): It is to be felt. Prabhupada: Ah… Yes. It is to be learned, just like the electrician learns how to adjust the positive and negative wire, and as soon as it is rightly adjusted there is light. You cannot say, “No, no, why it shall be adjusted like this? It can be done like this.” Oh, that will not give you light. You cannot speculate on the science. One plus… Two plus two equal to four. You cannot speculate, “Oh, can it not be three? Cannot be five?” No, that is not possible. You have to accept this two plus two equal to four. So the same example: so long it was not being adjusted to the right point, there was no light. So this adjustment… Suppose there is failure in my home. For this adjustment I have to call an experienced man. You may be a lawyer, you may be very nice thinker, but so far electricity is concerned, you have to call for a mistri, who may not be learned like you but he knows the art, how to do it, expert. Similarly, such a vast subject to understand God, you do not require the help of an expert? Guest (1): I did not take that… Prabhupada: No, no, I don’t mean you. Anyone. Anyone. If for ordinary things we have to call for an expert, to understand God is it not necessary to approach an expert? What do you think, Manuel? Manuel: Yes, yes. Prabhupada: That is… Therefore the Vedas says, tad-vijnanartham: “In order to know that transcendental science,” sa gurum evabhigacchet, “he must go to a guru. He must approach.” A guru means not bogus guru. One who knows expert. But one has to do that. There is no other alternative. That is the injunction of every Vedic sastra. And this order is from the Kathopanisad. Then, on the Bhagavad-gita the same thing is said, tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. Pranipata means surrender. Surrender where? Where to surrender? To a coolie? No, to a superior person, guru. Similarly, Bhagavata says, tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasur sreya uttamam: [SB 11.3.21] “One who is inquisitive to understand the spiritual science,” tasmad, “therefore,” gurum prapadyeta, “must surrender to a guru.” Just our, this morning prayer is guru, beginning of life, beginning of day’s work, first worshiping guru. Samsara-davanala-lidha-loka-tranaya-karunya-ghanaghanatvam, praptasya kalyana-gunarnavasya vande guroh sri-caranaravindam ** So in our, this Vedic way of life, to accept guru is essential. Even big, big acarya… Even Krsna, He accepted guru, Sandipani Muni. Lord Caitanya accepted guru, Isvara Puri. They are perfect, but still, the ways They are showing because They are acarya. Krsna is teaching, taking the part of the acarya, so he is also accepting, although the fact is as soon as went to, within a few days He learned everything. That is stated in our Krsna Book. Within a few days He became expert warrior, expert magician, expert yogi, every…, so many things, all arts. But He learned from a guru. He is perfect Himself, Krsna. He is called Yogesvara. He knows all the yoga process, but still, in order to teach us, because He is playing the part of a teacher, He shows us that you must learn from guru. “I am learning from guru.” So any science, you cannot learn it automatically by yourself. No, that is not. Then we shall create so many mental speculators, so many things. That will be not a science. Even all scientists, they accept a formula from an authority: “law of gravitation.” They accept it. Then their physical, so many things they discover. But accept one formula. Just like this formula is given by Sir Isaac Newton. So they accept guru. So from all practical point of view, the things which are unknown to us, we have to accept a guru, for things unknown to us. Now, there is another verse. Parabhavas tavad abodha-jatah. Abodha-jatah. We are all born ignorant. Is it not? What do you think? Are we not born fools? Is it not? Guest (2): Jnanena… Prabhupada: No, no. I mean to say, take our present position. You were born, I am born, he is born, everyone. Are we not born foolish? What do you think? Guest (2): The only sense is cry… Prabhupada: So many ways we do not know. There is some trouble, I am crying, child is crying, and the mother knows that, “He is suffering. Give…” Seeking the help of the mother. Then we are going to a school. The father is training, mother is training. Are you not born foolish? In the Bhagavata says, abodha-jatah: “born foolish.” Everyone is born rascal. So if he does not take help from the authorities how he can make progress? You have become lawyer by sitting at home? Guest (2): No, no, I take tests for many time. I look at books and I take test for one year, twelve, fourteen hours. Prabhupada: That is the process. So how can you deny to understand the supreme science—you can do it independently? No, that is not possible. Therefore it is the verb, the form, gacchet. It is called vidhilinga. You know Sanskrit? Yes. This form of verb is… Perhaps you also know. Gacchet, kuryat, gadyat. These are vidhilinga. Vidhilinga means that is compulsory. Is it not? Guest (3): Yes. Prabhupada: He knows Sanskrit very well. Compulsory. Therefore it is said, gacchet—compulsory. Tad-vijnanartham… Tat, the transcendental knowledge, vijnana, that is science. Tad-vijnanartham sa gurum eva niscayate [MU 1.2.12]. Eva is niscayate. Eva means certainly. And again gacchet, “must go.” Now, just like to be educated, one must be admitted in a school, must be. Now, what kind of school he has to select, that is another thing, but he must. That’s a fact. Similarly, you have to accept a guru. Now, whom you will accept a guru, that is another thing. But you have to do it. That is the injunction of all sastras. Vedic process is like that. This upanayana, the sacred thread, upanayana. Upa means near, and nayana means bringing. Anayanam, coming or going, like that, nayanam. So “to go near the spiritual master,” upanayana. Guest (3): Upanayana-samskara. Prabhupada: Yes. And that sacred thread is the certificate that he has accepted a spiritual master. That is our Vedic system, identity, thread, sacred thread. So the upana… The samskara is called upanayana-samskara. Upanayana means he has gone near the spiritual master. Therefore he is now dvija, second birth. When a person goes to the spiritual master, that is his second birth because he is born foolish. Take birth by the combination of father, mother— that is material birth—that is a birth of ignorance, just like animals. The animals also take their birth in that way. There is no different process, the sex life. So what is the difference between animal and man? Therefore, upanayana, dvija. Guest: Janmana jayate sudrah. Prabhupada: Janmana jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah. Unfortunately there is no samskara at the present moment. So therefore they remain sudra. A sudra means fourth-class. So how a fourth-class man can speculate on the science of God? Guest (2): But sudras are not allowed to upanayana-samskara. Prabhupada: No. No, no, no. Now, don’t take that way. One who does not take samskara, he is sudra, because janmana jayate sudrah. Everyone is born sudra. But if one does not accept the samskaras, he remains a sudra, not that sudras are not allowed to take samskara. Then how it is, that janmana jayate sudrah? Guest (4): (indistinct) Prabhupada: There are many instances. But this very word, “by birth one is sudra,” so there is no discrimination that “You are not sudra. I am not…,” by birth, abodha-jato, because he is born foolish rascal. Now, by samskara, by culture, by education, he becomes dvija, second birth. The practical example is these European and American students. They were doing all nonsense but since they have come to guru their life is reformed; therefore they are dvija. Samskarad bhaved dvijah, veda-pathet… Now, when he becomes dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas, not as a sudra. When we say sudra has no right to study Vedas, that means he will not be able to understand. Just like you became lawyer, but the condition is, unless you become graduate, unless you have graduated yourself, you cannot enter law college. That does not mean law is prohibited for anyone. It is open for everyone, but first of all you make yourself university graduate; then enter law. Similarly, everyone is sudra. Guest (2): A particular standard of understanding should be qualified. Prabhupada: Yes. So unless he has got samskara, he is enlightened by culture and knowledge, unless he has become dvija, then there is no authority for studying Vedas. Veda-pathet. After one has become dvija, then he is allowed to study Vedas. Janmana jayate sudrah samskarad bhaved dvijah, and veda-pathed bhaved viprah. Vipra. Then he becomes… Gradually increasing, from sudra he comes to dvija, then vipra. And after being vipra, after studying all the Vedas, when he realizes Brahman, then he is brahmana. Brahma janatiti brahmanah. So this Krsna consciousness movement is that, gradual process, gradual process and to make him a qualified brahmana. And when he becomes brahmana, then he knows Brahman. Then he makes spiritual progress. Without… Therefore, without becoming brahmana nobody can make spiritual progress. That is the door of spiritual knowledge. Then he makes progress, makes progress. So after understanding Brahman knowledge, then he comes to Paramatma knowledge, then he comes to Bhagavata knowledge. Guest (4): Veda says, (Sanskrit) Prabhupada: Yes. Bala-murti-tejah. So this is the scientific process. It is vijnana. Tad-vijnanam. And in the Seventh Chapter in Bhagavad-gita it is stated, jnanam vijnana-sahitam. Jnanam vijnana-sahitam. It is vijnana. It is science. Guest (3): Jnana means knowledge. Prabhupada: No, no. Vijnana is practical application. Guest (3): When you apply jnana and… Prabhupada: Yes. That is vijnana. So jnana knowledge, first knowledge, is what is God, what is God and what is my relation with Him. This is knowledge. Then you… When you act according to that knowledge, that is vijnana. That is bhakti. When you understand fully well that “God is great, and I am a small minute part and parcels of God,” and then you understand that the part and parcel’s duty is to serve the whole… Is it not? Just like the finger is part and parcel of my body. Its duty is to serve the whole body. Similarly, if we accept, if we understand, that “I am part and parcel of God; then my duty is to serve God.” But people are being misled that he is thinking God himself. Although he is under so many restrictions and stricture of the material nature. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah, ahankara-vimudhatma [Bg. 3.27] He is so foolish and rascal that he is thinking, “I am independent.” Ahankara-vimudhatma karta aham iti manyate. He is strictly under the stringent laws of material nature, but still, he is thinking falsely that “I am supreme. I am independent.” So therefore surrender required, that “I am not supreme.” That is knowledge. That is knowledge in the Bhagavad-gita. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate: [Bg. 7.19] “After many, many births of this speculation, when actually he becomes jnanavan, wise, then he surrenders.” Vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma su-durlabhah [Bg. 7.19] So unless we surrender, so long we think that “I am independent, I am God, I am Supreme,” these are all illusions. What do you think? Guest (2): Yes. Prabhupada: It is illusion, simply illusion. If I am God, how I have become so much dependent on the laws of material nature? Why I have accepted this body which I do not want? What kind of God I am? So the whole world is full of these ideas. So this movement is a revolutionary movement, Krsna consciousness. Guest (5): (Hindi) What is the meaning of God. Prabhupada: He does not… He does not know what is meaning of God. He thinks that God is something plaything. Therefore he claimed that “I am God.” He does not know what is God. Therefore God personally showing—He’s coming, Krsna: “What is God, see.” God is from very beginning God. Krsna, from the birth He is God. He hasn’t got to meditate. He hasn’t got to go to the forest and…, to become God. He is God. Guest (5): God is made for, sir. Prabhupada: Not “God is made.” God is never made. God is God. Guest (5): But, sir, G means (Hindi?) Prabhupada: That is your speculation. G means this, O means this, this means this. That you can interpret in so many ways but God is God. God is great. Brahman. Brahman means great, Parabrahman, the greatest. Param brahma param dhama pavitram paramam bhavan [Bg. 10.12]. That is Krsna. Is it not stated in the Bhagavad-gita? Guest (3): Before the birth of Lord Krsna, was God existing? God exhibit temporally… Prabhupada: Therefore you have to learn what is the birth of Krsna. You do not know. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. You do not know what is the birth. You are thinking that He is, like ordinary man He has taken birth. Otherwise why does He say, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah? Nobody knows what is His birth? He thinks He’s… Just like a child sees daily that the sun rises from the eastern side—therefore eastern side is the father of sun. Is eastern side father of the sun? Sun is always there, but you see in the morning it is appearing from the eastern side. That’s all. It is your angle of vision, not that sun is born, taking birth from the eastern side. Sun is always there in the sky. Similarly, Krsna is always there but to the foolish person it appears that He is born. Ajo ’pi sann avyayatma. Ajo ’pi: “I have no birth.” Ajah. This very word is used. Ajo ’pi sann avyayatma bhutanam isvaro ’pi san. So how you can compare Krsna’s birth like ordinary birth? If anyone knows what is Krsna’s birth he becomes liberated. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. So that knowledge is not tattvatah knowledge, that Krsna’s birth. Krsna’s birth is every moment. Just like sun. Now here it is not sunshine but in another place the sunshine is rising. So is that the birth, or when the sun will rise here, that will be birth? Which will be the birth of sun? Guest (3): It will always be there. Prabhupada: Yes. It is already there but when you see, you see, you see that it is birth. The sunrise is already somewhere, and the sunset is also already somewhere but in your angle of vision there is no sun. That is going on. Similarly, Krsna’s birth, every moment; Krsna’s disappearance, every moment; Krsna’s existence, every moment. You have to learn that. Therefore Krsna said, janma karma me divyam, transcendental. Yo janati tattvatah. Anyone who knows it perfectly, in truth, he becomes liberated. If you have known Krsna, then you are liberated. But Krsna knowing is not so easy. Manusyanam sahasresu kascid yatati siddhaye yatatam api siddhanam kascid vetti mam tattvatah [Bg. 7.3]. It is very difficult to understand Krsna in truth. Then how one can understand? That is also stated: bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. Not by speculation of knowledge. Bhaktya. And what is that bhakti? Anyabhilasita-sunyam jnana-karmady-anavrtam, anukulyena krsnanusilanam bhaktir uttama [BRS 1.1.11]. So these things you have to learn. Then there is possibility of knowledge, tad-vijnana. The difficulty is at the present moment the theory that everyone can invent his way of understanding God. He can speculate. Therefore there is chaos. There is chaos. If you want to save yourself from this chaotic condition of life you must take to Krsna consciousness. That is our proposal. Give me that knife. Hare Krsna. Not so many. Begin. Aiye. [break] …friend of Krsna. How much exalted he is, a great warrior, and he has the right to talk with Krsna on equal level. Still, he accepted Krsna as spiritual master. And he said, “The confusion which I have created, it is not possible for me to clear it. It is You only who can clear, I know. Therefore I accept You as spiritual master.” Therefore it is required that one should know who can clear your confusion, and there you must surrender. (aside:) Anyone? Everyone. Come on. Not in the left hand. Don’t give anything by left hand; don’t take anything. That is a etiquette. Hare Krsna. Yes. Yes. Guest (2): I’ll look on here this morning.(?) Prabhupada: That’s all right. Oh, you haven’t got. You have got? Hare Krsna. (birds crying) The sunrise is declared. “Koo koo koo koo koo.” Yes. Nature’s way. They’ll not sleep any more. Therefore anyone who sleeps after sunrise, he is a rascal. He’s a rascal. Yes. A child at once, early in the morning, rise. That is nature. But we have created such a life that we have to break all the nature laws and therefore we suffer. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya, mam eva ye prapadyante [Bg. 7.14]. And one who has surrendered to Krsna, he is free. He is rising early. He has surpassed the maya. And those who are in maya they are sleeping. And those who are not in maya they are rising early in the morning. Is it not? Mam eva ye prapadyante: “Anyone who surrenders unto Me, he becomes free from the maya’s contamination.” Just see. There is mangala arati. In Vrndavana just at four o’clock. You have heard? Yamuna: I was just thinking, Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Immediately there is “dung, dung, dung, dung,” all temples. Immediately. And people are running. Oh, they will gather all to the Deity, temple. Hundreds of people will go automatically. The same man who was living at home, a very degraded condition, as soon as he goes to Vrndavana he becomes habituated to all these things automatically. Automatically. Yes. The society, association, is very important. Yamuna: Those beautiful birds, the peacock birds also at this time, they are flying in trees and waking up now and make that sound. Oh, Vrndavana. Prabhupada: So the society is very important thing. Any, anything, society… The businessmen, they have got their association, society, to improve. Therefore the standard of this International Society should be kept very carefully. Then who will come in touch with this society will be improved automatically by association. All right. Even in the bird society there are swans and there are crows, by nature, and the crows will never go to the swans, and the swans will never come to the crows. “Birds of the same feather flock together.” Yes. Therefore society required. Unless you come to the Krsna consciousness society, how you can develop Krsna consciousness? The same principle. Satam prasangan… Satam prasangan mama virya-samvido bhavanti hrt-karna-rasayanah kathah. Virya-samvidah. It becomes very palatable, satam prasangat, in the association of devotees, not otherwise. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
January 17, 1971, Allahabad