Room Conversation Devotee: …then why is any one activity of Krsna consciousness better than another one? Why is any one way of serving Krsna better than another? For example, with chanting of the sixteen rounds. Suppose that you’ve gone 23 hours of the day serving Krsna in one way or another, and the last hour there is opportunity to finish your rounds and also opportunity to make a life member. So instead of chanting your sixteen rounds… Prabhupada: But you cannot create your concoction! You have to abide by the orders of Krsna. Devotee: Then why… Prabhupada: There is no question of why. It is the order of Krsna’s representative. You have to abide by that. You cannot say, “Why?” Then you are not fully surrendered, as soon as you say, “Why?” Surrender means there is no “Why?” It is ordered; it has to be done. That’s all. As soon as there is “Why?”, there is no surrender. The basic principle is misguided. We have to follow. Just like we have got tilaka. If you say, “Why this tilaka?” There is no question of “Why?” Mahajano yena gatah sa pantha. We have been instructed by the acaryas; we have to follow that. That is surrender. You cannot say, “Why?” Is that clear? As soon as there is “Why?”, there is no surrender. Guest: But suppose one is engaged for his livelihood for eight hours, or ten hours for material purposes… Prabhupada: Yes. Guest: How he will link with Krsna during that period? Prabhupada: Well, you have got twenty-four hours. For livelihood… Your livelihood, if also… That also should be for Krsna. Just like Krsna said, yat karosi. Yat karosi. That means whatever you do, your livelihood is also… Do it. You do it for Krsna. Livelihood, just like we are also living, we are also eating, you are also eating. So what is the difference? You mold your life in such a way that that working for your livelihood would be also Krsna’s service. Guest: That should not be for ours. Prabhupada: Yes. Krsna says, kurusva mad-arpanam, yat karosi. “Whatever you do, the result should be given to Me.” Do for it. “Do for for Me.” Yat karosi yaj juhosi yad asnasi yat tapasyasi dadasi yat. So this requires training, how everything can be molded for Krsna. Therefore guidance required, bona fide spiritual master required. Under his guidance, one has to do. Adau gurvasrayam. In order to execute Krsna consciousness, one has to first of all accept a bona fide spiritual master. Then everything will be done. He is representative of Krsna, and to act under his direction means acting under Krsna. He knows how to utilize your energy for service of Krsna. Adau gurvasrayam sad-dharma-prcchat sadhu-marganugamanam. Just like Rupa Gosvami, he was prime minister. He had no information of Krsna, but since he saw… Of course, Rupa Gosvami is eternally Krsna’s companion, but superficially he was showing that he was a prime minister and he was engaged in Nawab’s service. But when he met Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then he decided that “I shall retire from this service and act Caitanya Mahaprabhu’s mission.” So what did he do? Whatever money he collected by his service—it was huge amount—fifty percent he immediately spent for Krsna. And fifty…, twenty-five percent he gave to the relatives, and twenty-five percent he kept for his emergency expenditure. So this division, fifty percent for Krsna means the whole life he acted as a minister, that means he acted for Krsna. Because the result is given to Krsna and Krsna says, yat karosi kurusva tad mad-arpanam. Is it clear? But our business is… Suppose I am earning for my livelihood. Everyone is working for… Livelihood requires only six annas per day. But he is earning six thousand per day, and he says, “It is my livelihood.” Is it not fact? Very, very… Many, many big businessmen, they are earning six thousand per month…per day. But actually, for his livelihood he requires six annas. Why he’s earning six thousand? Then Krsna says, “Give it to Me.” Yat karosi kurusva tad mad-arpanam. Guest: In Adhyaya Two of Srimad Bhagavad-gita Krsna, in one place He has told that karmany evadhikaras te ma phalesu kadacana. Prabhupada: Huh? Ma phalesu kadacana. But don’t take the result. Guest: He has ordered for duty, “You must do whatever you are doing.” Prabhupada: Yes. So that duty should be performed. Nobody… Just like Arjuna. Arjuna did his duty. He was a fighter. But he fought for Krsna. That is his excellence. Is it not? He was a fighter. His duty as a ksatriya, his duty is to fight. But he fought for Krsna. Similarly, everyone can perform his duty. That is also enjoined in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. Atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah. Varna and asrama. There are different kinds of duties. Atah pumbhir dvija-srestha varnasrama-vibhagasah, svanusthitasya dharmasya. Everyone has got his particular type of duty, but how he is becoming perfect by performing his duty, that is to be seen whether Krsna is satisfied. Svanusthitasya dharmasya samsiddhir hari-tosanam [SB 1.2.13]. Guest: How it can be judged that…? Prabhupada: That by, through Krsna’s representative. He should certify, “Yes. Your duty is nicely peformed.” Guest: How he may perfectly judge it? How the person will judge himself that I am doing…? Prabhupada: No. He’ll not judge. His spiritual master will judge. Krsna’s representative. He’ll not judge. He will make mistake. Therefore, if one has accepted a bona fide spiritual master, that means he is in direct touch with Krsna. Transparent media. He has to see Krsna through the transparent medium of spiritual master. Therefore it is imperative, one has to accept a… Tasmad gurum prapadyeta jijnasuh sreyah uttamam [SB 11.3.21]. And what kind of guru? Sabde pare ca nisnatam brahmany upasamasrayam. So this is a big science. One has to study. One has to understand. The things are there. There is no difficulty. Guest: Just you have told about liberation, and in Adhyaya Two Krsna has told that jirnani vastrani vihaya… Prabhupada: Aparani. Navani vastrani aparani, grhnaty aparani. Guest: Yes. According to that version, one, if the soul was there, soul was there before birth, and after death, soul is there, and again the soul is coming in a new shape. So the soul is going on always, changing one body to another body, then how the soul is liberated? How it will be… Prabhupada: Liberated means at the present moment under this material, in this material world, he is accepting material body, and when he is bona fide servant of Krsna, he’ll be offered a spiritual body. Just like a soldier. A person, so long he’s not a soldier, he does not, he is not awarded the uniform. But as soon as he accepts the service as a soldier, immediately he is given the uniform. So you are accepting different bodies in the material world, and that is bhutva bhutva praliyate. You are accepting one type of body, it is becoming vanished, again you have to accept another. But as soon as you become perfectly Krsna conscious, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9], then, after leaving this body, he does not come to this material world. He is immediately… Mam eti, he transfers. Similarly, he accepts spiritual body. Is it clear or not? You are accepting material body now, birth after birth. Is it not? That is transmigration. Sometimes you are accepting human body, sometimes you are accepting dog’s body, sometimes you are accepting king’s body, sometimes you are accepting somebody else. Is it not? Is it clear? Guest: But Krsna has told Arjuna that… Prabhupada: First of all, try to clear this. Now, you are accepting different types of body. Is it not a fact? Guest: Yes. Prabhupada: Yes. Now when you are Krsna conscious, you haven’t got to accept a material body. You go directly to Krsna and accept spiritual body. Then your life is eternal. Guest: Then again he will not get material…? Prabhupada: No. Tyaktva deham punar janma naiti [Bg. 4.9]. When you are Krsna conscious, there is no more accepting material body. Mam eti. And mam eti means whoever goes to Krsna, he has as good a body as Krsna. That is oneness. Guest: Then what does it mean when Krsna has told Arjuna, in the battlefield that “Do you think either you or I were not there in the past? And you and I will not be…?” Prabhupada: So Krsna and Arjuna existed. You are existing. You are eternal. You are simply changing body. So Krsna is existing; you are also existing. What is the difficulty to understand this fact? Krsna is existing and you are also existing. You are simply changing body, but Krsna is not changing body. That is the difference. Guest: Soul will not merge into that light, Krsna’s light? Prabhupada: What is that merging? You have got that brain, merging. Guest: I told that… You have told… Prabhupada: Yes. Soul is changing body. Why you are talking of merging? You are changing body, you are individual. I am changing body. I may change to a dog’s body, you may change to a demigod’s body. That is going on. According to one’s karma, he is changing body. Now, when you are Krsna conscious fully, this change of body will take place also, but that body will be spiritual. So long you get material body, you have to change, one after another, one after another, one after another. Just like if you have a cheap thing, it goes wrong, you have to purchase another new thing. But if you purchase a real, nice thing it will go, continue for good. Similarly, so long you are getting this cheap body, material body, you have to change. And as soon as you get the most valuable body, spiritual body, there will be no more change. Why don’t you understand like that? So that you have to get. That is very simple. Krsna says, janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah. One who does not know what is Krsna, he thinks that somebody is greater than Krsna. But anyone who knows Krsna as he is, immediately he gets that permanent body. Simply by knowing Krsna. Janma karma me divyam yo janati tattvatah, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti [Bg. 4.9]. Is it clear? Yes. So you have to do that. You have simply to understand Krsna. The whole problem is solved. (Prabhupada is pounding on the table, stressing points.) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) You cannot concoct. (Hindi) Try to understand Krsna, and Krsna can be understood simply by devotional service. Krsna says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. (Hindi) If you want to understand Krsna, you have to accept this devotional service. You cannot propose any other alternative. It is useless. Don’t spoil time. Krsna says, bhaktya mam abhijanati [Bg. 18.55]. And that begins: first of all, surrender to Krsna. Sarva-dharman parityajya [Bg. 18.66]. Whatever nonsense you have known, thrown away. Simply surrender to Krsna. That is the beginning of Bhagavad-gita. Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: (Hindi) Imam vivasvate yogam proktavan. Forty millions of years ago what He did, He remembers. Therefore His marana. His janma is different. (Hindi) He remembers. You do not remember. You sambhava(?), but you do not remember. Why don’t you understand the difference between your activities and Krsna’s activities? That is wanted. Why do you think that “Krsna is as good as I am”? Then you’ll be able to understand Him. Avajananti mam mudha. As soon as you think that “Krsna is as good as I am,” then you are mudha. “Because He has appeared as a human being, therfore He is as good a human being like me.” That is the conclusion of the mudha, rascals. Avajananti mam mudha manusim tanum asritam, param bhavam ajananto [Bg. 9.11]. He does not know what is Krsna. (Hindi) …bhaktya mam abhijanati yavan yas casmi tattvatah [Bg. 18.55]. [break] …understands Krsna as He is, then he’s allowed to, “Come on. Enter.” Not before that. Guest: What about the argument, not (indistinct), but India we see that every great saint personality has surrendered to Krsna, even Mahatma Gandhi? Prabhupada: No, no, no, no. Guest: He was also taking his… Prabhupada: No, no. Don’t say like that. Surrender of Krsna is different. Then you have to understand what is surrender. Mahatma never surrendered to Krsna. He surrendered to yourself; therefore you killed him. (Indian laughs) He surrendered to his countrymen, and his countrymen killed him. He was working for his countrymen. That’s all. He never worked for Krsna. Guest: But the Gita was always with him. Prabhupada: But, but, no but. You see from the action. Guest: I also read Gita. What’s the difference? I mean, Mahatma Gandhi… Prabhupada: He never surrendered to Krsna. I wrote him letter. “Mahatma Gandhi, you have got so much influence. You just preach the gospel of Krsna, Bhagavad-gita. Now we have attained svaraj. You don’t be in politics.” But he was still in politics after attainment of svaraj. And his assistants became disgusted because he was interfering, and therefore he was killed. And that is open secret. If he would have surrendered to Krsna, “All right. Now I have worked for svaraj. My people have got svaraj. Now let me work for Krsna,”… He never did that. You cannot say that he surrendered to Krsna. He should have taken immediately sannyasa and preached Bhagavad-gita if he was actually surrendered to Krsna. What did he do for Krsna? We have to know from practical point of view. I’ll tell you another story about Mahatma Gandhi. My Guru Maharaja invited him in our matha, Mahatma Gandhi. So Mahatma Gandhi inquired… The, my godbrothers went to invite him. “What you are doing in your matha?” They replied that “We are worshiping Lord Krsna.” So he inquired, “Are you pulling on charka?” They said, “No sir,” He said, “Charka is my God. If there is no charka, I am not going there.” He said like that. Devotee: What is charka? Prabhupada: Yes, spinning. Because he was spinning daily. Just like you are chanting sixteen rounds, he was spinning sixteen rounds. (laughter) And he said frankly, “Are you spinning charka?” They said, “No sir.” “Oh, then I am not going there. My god is charka.” That is practical. We have got experience. And actually he was refusing. Just like we are insisting, “You must chant Hare Krsna mantra sixteen rounds,” he was… There were so many charkas daily selling. People took it very seriously. We also took charka and that, what is called? Devotee: Handloom. Prabhupada: Handloom. And there was very good business. So many charkas and that handloom was sold in the shops because everyone was purchasing and purchasing. And they were stacked and thrown away some time after. So… Because Mahatma Gandhi asked, everyone did. You see? So he also asked our matha people that “Are you spinning a charka?” They said, “No, sir.” “Then I am not going.” He refused the invitation. Does it mean he surrendered to Krsna? He surrendered to charka. That’s all. (laughter) And if you say, “Charka is also Krsna,” oh, there will be no more argument. (laughter) Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: Avatara means avataran. (Hindi) What is the meaning of descent? What is the meaning of descent? Coming down. Coming down. Yes. Guest: In the sense of quality or in the sense of form. Prabhupada: The sense of form. Because your brain is congested with impersonalism, you cannot understand what is spiritual form. That is your defect. Guest: That is the trouble. Prabhupada: Yes. (Hindi) All hodgepodge things should be… Guest: (Hindi) Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore… (Hindi) What is this intellect? It is ignorance. This is not intellect. It is ignorance. You are accepting something wrong. That is ignorance. Ignorance is jnanavan. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. That is knowledge. This is ignorance. He does not know Krsna. And one who does not know Krsna, he has no value of his knowledge. Bhagavata says, na te viduh svartha-gatim hi visnum [SB 7.5.31]. Knowledge, what is the target of knowledge? To go up to Visnu, to understand. Tad visnum paramam padam sada pasyanti surayah. Those who are actually intelligent, they are simply observing the Visnu form. This is Vedic mantra. So unless you reach to that point, your knowledge has no value. It is ignorance. Naham prakasah sarvasya yogamaya-samavrtah [Bg. 7.25]. So long you do not understand Krsna, that means your knowledge is covered still. yesam anta-gatam papam jananam punya-karmanam te dvanda-moha-nirmukta bhajante mam drdha-vratah Ignorance means papa. Through ignorance one commits sin. Just like a man kills somebody in ignorance that he will be killed also. He does not know. Just like so many people are killing animals. They do not know that the animal also kill him. That is ignorance. Just like here the law is life for life. If you take one life, then you have to give your life. State law. Is it not? If you kill somebody, then you’ll be killed also. So why not God’s law like that? But they are ignorant; they are killing animals. That is ignorance. Killing means sin. Why they are committing this sin? Ignorance. He does not know the law that he will also be killed. Karma-bandhana. Yajnarthat karmano ’nyatra karma-bandhanah. He’ll be bound up by his actions. And he does not know. That is ignorance. So this whole world is, this material world is full of ignorance. Therefore it is called tamasi. Tamasi ma jyotir gama. That ignorance is, I mean to say, dissipated simply by Krsna consciousness. There is no other method. Ceto-darpana-marjanam [Cc. Antya 20.12]. Simply by Krsna consciousness, that ignorance can be dissipated. Otherwise not. Not possible. Krsna therefore says, sa mahatma sudurlabhah. Completely eradicated from the platform of ignorance is very rarely to be found. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. There may be so many mahatmas, but such mahatma who has fully surrendered to Krsna is very rare. Therefore one who has surrendered to Krsna, he is perfect mahatma, he is perfect yogi. Devotee: Srila Prabhupada? Suppose for one who’s not completely surrendered, how will he make choices? For example, suppose that there seem to be two different ways of serving Krsna… Prabhupada: He should consult his spiritual master. Devotee: Suppose for example questions are arising in my mind and I think to myself, “Oh, this question is a foolish question, so I shouldn’t waste the spiritual master’s time.” But on the other hand… Prabhupada: No. Don’t speculate. You should immediately refer the matter to your spiritual master. Devotee: Then I would be asking you questions all day long and you’d have no time to do anything else. (laughter) Prabhupada: No. You are welcome. You are welcome. Devotee: Then how do you… Suppose, for example, last night. I was chanting, and then I thought to myself, “Oh, I’m not concentrating on the chanting any more. Now I should go to sleep.” Then how… Prabhupada: Therefore you are, we have prescribed rules for chanting. You must finish sixteen rounds, then go to sleep, whole day sleeping. You finish that sixteen rounds and sleep whole day. I have no objection. (laughter) Devotee: But then… Prabhupada: There is no then. Don’t talk nonsense. If you are so much addicted to sleeping, you simply chant sixteen rounds and whole day sleep. But don’t take food also. (laughter) Don’t get up taking prasadam. “Now I have to honor prasadam. Let me eat sumptuous, then again sleep more.” Devotee: Is there some order of priority in service then? I mean, sixteen rounds is more important than anything else. And then following that, there’s something else. Prabhupada: That’s all right. If you cannot do anything else, you simply chant sixteen rounds, take prasadam, and sleep. (laughter) It is special prerogative for you. There is no then. This is, this is order for you. Devotee: In a situation where there’s a choice between say chanting and reading. Is chanting a better activity than reading? Prabhupada: Yes, chanting and reading is the same thing. Devotee: But is one better than the other? Prabhupada: No better. That I explained. It is absolute. Either you chant or read, the same thing. But you have to fulfill the sixteen rounds. That’s it. All right. Let us… (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
February 17, 1971, Gorakhpur