Morning Walk Conversation Prabhupada: How far progress, establish matter from life, not life from matter? Svarupa Damodara: I’ve started working. Prabhupada: Ah. A great task. That will be a triumph for Krsna consciousness movement. Svarupa Damodara: [break] Brahma-vaivarta Purana? Asatim caiva caturo laksam…(?) Prabhupada: Tan… Svarupa Damodara: jiva-jatisu. Prabhupada: Jiva-jatisu. Jiva-jatisu. That means the evolution means from one form to another. The forms are already… Jatisu. Their facilities, they are already there. The living entity is simply transferring himself. The same example: One man is transferring himself from one apartment to another. That apartment is first- class, second-class, third-class. Just a person has come from a lower class apartment to a first-class apartment. The person is the same. Now, according to his karma or according to his capacity of payment, he has got a good apartment. This is… Bhramadbhih. Bhramat means wandering, wandering. Not that they… Evolution means developing. Is it not? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. I understand that part, but I also come across from Srila Prabhupada’s commentary on the Bhagavad-gita that the living entities, all the living entities, 8,400,000 species, they are simultaneously created. Prabhupada: Yes. Svarupa Damodara: That means there are some living entities, say for example, human beings. They come right away to the human platform without undergoing the… Prabhupada: Yes, Brahma. Just like Brahma. He is in human form only with four hands. He is the first born. And then he created other living entities. Brahma is first born from Visnu. He has got four heads, four hands, two legs, he can speak. It is human form. Then, from him other forms came out, maricy adi, rsi, great great, saintly persons. Narada, Kumara. In this way, creation was there. Svarupa Damodara: So the evolution of life… Those who are coming to the lowest living entity, the organisms, smaller units, so once they come to that stage, then they have to pass through the stages stepwise. Prabhupada: Yes. Just the same example: As you get more money, you can acquire better apartment. The apartment is already there. Not that a apart…, this lower class apartment has become high class apartment. This is their nonsense. The Darwin nonsense theory is like that: “The apartment has become lower class to higher class.” That is his theory. Svarupa Damodara: No, he is saying that evolving from the smaller units. So they are claiming that there was no human beings at the beginning, so the smaller living entities… Prabhupada: But they are claiming that there is no life. That is their defect. Therefore they cannot think how there can be human being. But if you begin from life, supreme life, Visnu, from another life, Brahma came, then there is no problem. Everything is all right. Because they think that life comes from matter, so millions and millions of years ago there was simply matter. Life was not visible. That is their theory. We don’t say that. We say both are the energies, God’s energies, life and matter. The life is superior energy; the matter is inferior energy. That is the difference. Both of them are existing. Same thing, example: This nail and this part existing always. This is superior part, this is inferior. Svarupa Damodara: They are existing simultaneously or living entity creates. Prabhupada: Yes. Without nails how can I exist? Without skin, how can I exist? My existence means everything—my skin, my hair, my nails, my legs, my hands, everything. Svarupa Damodara: So one is dependent on the other? Or the spirit is independent of matter? Prabhupada: The spirit is independent. Just like I am existing. That is life. And there are other limbs of the body. I can live even without limbs of my body, but I cannot live without life. If I have no hands, no legs, still I live. So therefore I am not dependent on hands and legs. My hands and legs are dependent on me. (pause) Is it not better to walk little, then sit down, compact room? Karandhara: Oh yes, it’s necessary to walk a little. Prabhupada: Yes. (laughs) Just get my cloth. Where it is? Missing? No, no, no. Harer nama… [Adi 17.21]. Our theory is sound. The rascal’s theory is not sound. Ours is not theory; it is fact. Just like Krsna says, mattah sarvam pravartate: “From Me everything emanates.” Vedanta-sutra says, janmady asya yatah: [Bhag. 1.1.1] The Absolute Truth is that from where everything comes.” But everything we see, life and matter. This is everything. What we see in this world? Life and matter. Is it not? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Prabhupada: That is everything. So life also comes from Him and matter also comes from Him. Energy. Svarupa Damodara: But both come simultaneously? Prabhupada: No, no, not simultaneously. It is there already. Coming, idea is coming because we are in this limited world. We see everything here, we see there is beginning. So under that experience, we are thinking it is coming. But it’s not coming. Svarupa Damodara: It is already existing. Prabhupada: Already there. Therefore they are missing the clue. Coming, beginning from here. They are rascals. It is already there. God is eternal and everything is eternal. His energy is eternal. Matter and spirit, everything is there. I am born, I think that this is the beginning of the world. Nonsense, the world was there long ago. Everything was there existing. Just like you get heat from fire. So does it mean heat is beginning? Whenever there is fire, there is heat. But I think, “Now there is fire, heat will come.” Heat will not come. It is already there. You will experience. Similarly, heat and light is… Everything is there in fire. If the fire is there, heat and light is there. There is no question of beginning. What do they say? The heat and light, there was beginning? About the… Svarupa Damodara: There is a source for heat and light. Prabhupada: Yes. So source is already there. Therefore heat and light is already there. Svarupa Damodara: So the varieties of living entities that we find in the material world, can we explain because of the desire of the living entities, to make…, to live in different houses? Prabhupada: Yes. He knows. Just like government constructs a prison house. Government knows there will be rascals, criminals. So already is there prison. Before the judgement the prison house is already there. Sarva-jna. God is sarva-jna. He knows everything. So He knows that some of them will come out criminal. Just like king knows that not that always everyone will be honest. There will be dishonest. So construct this prisonhouse. Like that. God knows, Krsna knows that this material world, the varieties of desires according to the modes of material nature… So there are three modes of… You can calculate also. Just like there are three modes of material nature, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Now if you make variety, three into three, it becomes nine. And nine into nine, it becomes eighty-one. So there is eighty-four. What is the difficulty to understand? These three qualities, just like three colors, blue, red and yellow, you mix. Oh, thousands of different colors you will find. It is the expert color combination. That’s all. Similarly this material world is made of three qualities and if you make varieties, mix them again eighty-one to eighty-one you can mix. So it requires expert handling. So that expert handling is there. Nature is there. Prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani [Bg. 3.27]. Gunaih. This very word is used, gunaih. By the qualities, prakrti is manufacturing different types of body, varieties of body: plants, trees, aquatics, human beings, demigods, cats, dogs, so many things, 8,400,000. Svarupa Damodara: So when the Paramatma and the jivatma are within the same material living body, so the… Prabhupada: Paramatma is not material body. Paramatma’s energy. Just like heat and light is the energy of the sun. The sun is not feeling heat and light. For him, everything is all right. There is no heat in the sun, body of the sun. He doesn’t feel any heat. You are feeling heat. Similarly, for Paramatma there is no such thing: this is material, this is spiritual. Parasya saktir vividhaiva sruyate. We hear that He has got different energies. His energy is one. Visnu-saktih para. That is spiritual only. Just like sunshine. That is sunshine. Now we are seeing it is covered with cloud. It is our imperfectness. But there, in the sun, there is no such thing cloud. Experience, practical experience. The sun is not experiencing cloud, although there is cloud. We are experiencing. Similarly, this matter and spirit is for us, not for Him. He, either He comes in so-called material body or spiritual body it is the same. It is the same. For Him it is like that, the same, because it is His energy. He can turn matter into spirit, spirit into matter. That He can do. Svarupa Damodara: So making these houses, temporary houses, is directed by Him. Prabhupada: No. Directed by maya. Prakrteh, prakrteh kriyamanani. Is it dry or wet? (the ground) Svarupa Damodara: Not very wet, just a little wet. Prabhupada: He has nothing to do. Na tasya karyam karanam ca vidyate. Just like I am head of the institution. I have nothing to do. I say, “Karandhara, do it.” Immediately does. I say you, do it, immediately… I say him. I have got so many secretaries. I will ask him. Similarly, why God will create. Svarupa Damodara: But there is a direction. Prabhupada: Direction, yes. That is said, mayadhyaksena prakrtih: [Bg. 9.10] “Under My direction.” So if it is possible for a common man like me, how much it is possible for God? That we have to understand. Now I want to go to India, London. Now everything arrangement is made. I can go immediately. So similarly, if God wants to do something, why He has to do something? Everything, as soon as He desires, everything is there. He wants “Let there be material creation.” There is, immediately. This is God. We are thinking in my terms. “Oh, such a huge universe! How a person can create? Where he got this tool? Where he’s got the hammer? And how he constructed it?” I am thinking like that. Because I am limited, I am thinking in my limited way. So I am denying, “There is no God.” Therefore we have to first of all understand acintya, inconceivable power. Then we can understand God. If I think, “God may be…” That kupa-manduka, that frog is thinking, “It may be little bigger than this, little bigger than this.” So how you can understand Atlantic Ocean within the well? So these rascals are all frogs. So they are thinking in their own terms, God. And because they cannot accommodate, “There is no God, finish.” The same example: the rabbit, “Close the eyes, there is no danger.” Finish. That’s it. They are no better than the rabbits, these so-called scientists. Closing the eyes, there is no God. You have to smash them by their, Tora lati na, tor sila torna amora tora bani dantera gora.(?) Svarupa Damodara: Tor sila? Prabhupada: Sila you know? Svarupa Damodara: Ah, huh. Prabhupada: And nora means mortar and what is called, pestle? So it is your sila nora. I take it and break your teeth. (laughter) So take their, this jugglery of words and break their teeth. That should be the policy. “These molecules and this and that,” so many words. You have to simply catch their words, and with their words kill them. That is intelligence. We are saying plainly. You say with these words which is their sona, mortar and pestle, and break their teeth. That’s all. Tora sila tora nora tora bani dantera gora.(?) This policy should be adopted. Otherwise, we know they are rascals. But if I say, rascal, people will say, “You are not a scientific man, how you can say he is rascal?” “Therefore I am flattering you that otherwise…” You haven’t got to convince me, that (he’s a) rascal. I know that he is a rascal. Now, because we have to prove that he is a rascal to another rascal, we have to take your help. This is our policy. Otherwise, so far we are concerned, if they go on lecturing for millions of years, we shall kick on their face. You should know he is mistaken. Let the rascal speak whatever he likes. We know the conclusion. Svarupa Damodara: So in trying to make a house, we need certain materials to build the house. Prabhupada: Yes. Materials are already there. Svarupa Damodara: So similarly when the living entities, when they come down to the material platform… Prabhupada: Material is already there. Just like what you are manufacturing. You are… Already everything is there. Svarupa Damodara: So the chemists or the scientists, what they’re thinking is, there are chemical elements, which are the materials necessary for staying the spirit soul within the…, so long as he is within the material world. So they’re saying that these material elements—carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen—the main elements, somehow they combine together forming the living units, but our point is the chemicals are there, but in order to start the real nice house, the spirit soul has to enter within these chemical elements. Prabhupada: Yes. These chemical elements will already help him, by nature’s way. Just like you put a seed on the earth. So other things necessary for fructifying that seed, that is already there. They will come to help it. That is already there. Just like the living entity in seed form is impregnated within the womb of the mother. The mother has got within the womb all ingredients. Body will develop. On account of the presence of the living entity, by the laws of nature, everything is there. A dog is forming dog’s body, man is forming man’s body. Why? Because everything is there. A cat is forming cat’s body in the womb of the… Yatha yonir yatha bijam. You haven’t got to search out. It is already there. Svarupa Damodara: So they may ask, “How do I know that the living entities…” Prabhupada: What you know? You do not know first of all. Therefore you have to take information from the sastra. Karmana daiva netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1] This is there. The jiva is doing something, and higher authorities are giving him the result: “Now you have done this. Now you live in this way, in condition.” Svarupa Damodara: That part we can explain by… When they ask, “How do I know that the living entities…?” Prabhupada: Just like a man is condemned for going to the jail. The man who will take him to the jail, the jail and everything is already there. The arrangement for his living in the jail, everything is complete there. Svarupa Damodara: Can we explain by acintya sakti, Srila Prabhupada? If we say, how we enter, that is the difference between the… Prabhupada: No, that is acintya-sakti. You cannot think how it is done. Svarupa Damodara: But it is done. Prabhupada: It is done. Just like sometimes I think that I came here alone without any expectation of success, and this movement has become so nice. Actually, by one man’s effort it was not possible. But it has become so. This is acintya-sakti, Krsna’s, inconceivable. Even a modern businessman, he cannot organize such a worldwide organization in such short a time. We have talked with many businessmen in India. Some said, “We have got thirty branches,” somebody says, “We have got forty,” another twenty branches. Our students say “My Guru Maharaja has 102 branches.” So they say, “No, we cannot compare with your Guru Maharaja.” So this is acintya-sakti. You can see so many things, the acintya-sakti is working. So unless we accept acintya-sakti of God, it is not possible to understand what is God. Inconceivable potency. And that is actually a fact. We want to bring God to our level, that’s frog philosophy. Atlantic Ocean to the level of well. That is foolishness. That is foolishness. We have to understand that this whole universe… Just like Arjuna saw the virad-rupa, universal form. So this whole universe is the form of the Lord. So if in my body there are so many chemicals, enzymes, and other things, so how much there must be, proportionately? Suppose if we find some portion of chemicals in my body, you will find less in the ant’s body. Or you will find more in the elephant’s body. So if I can create so many chemicals within my body, how much chemicals He can create? On that account… Your theory, that combination of hydrogen, oxygen makes water, that is a fact. But you are surprised, wherefrom such a big quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came so that the ocean is there. That you cannot calculate. But we answer: “This hydrogen, oxygen is there in the body, universal body of the Lord.” Therefore you find. Why do they, do not understand this plain thing? Hydrogen, oxygen we accept; that’s a fact. But you are surprised wherefrom this big quantity of hydrogen, oxygen came? That we answer. So let us cooperate. Then the people will be happy. That is acintya-sakti. If a poor man cannot spend ten dollars and if a rich man immediately spends million dollars, he becomes surprised, “How it is possible? How it is possible?” It is like that. We have got the capacity of not even ten dollars. We are thinking of millions and trillion dollars. Adara vapari yahan khabor.(?) You know this? Adar, adar, adar means ginger. A ginger merchant, he is asking, “When the another ship will come?” Ginger is never purchased ship loaded. You take little ginger. If you have got one bag of ginger, then it will be sold in three years. So adar vapari yahan khabor. (?) What you have got to do with ship, shipment? You just carry one bag or ten sheer(?) or ten kilos… That’s all. So these rascals, they are adar vapari, and they are taking account of where is that ship. Svarupa Damodara: I’ve noticed that there is a misunderstanding in the definition of living and the non-living among the scientific communities. Prabhupada: What is their definition? Svarupa Damodara: They are saying that living beings can reproduce and can grow and can make… Prabhupada: Yes, that we say. That we also say. Svarupa Damodara: But there are also non-living matters like crystals. They can grow. We can divide them, and it will reproduce like… Prabhupada: No, without living entity within, nothing can grow. Svarupa Damodara: Yes. So some are saying that when they make these chemicals like the big molecules that we were talking about, DNA… And they are saying that DNA can make its own replication, means it can make another chain of molecules by its own. So they are saying that it is living. Prabhupada: Yes. Svarupa Damodara: And some are saying that it’s not living. Prabhupada: That means their knowledge is imperfect. Somebody is saying something somebody is saying something. That means imperfect. Svarupa Damodara: So if we define the definition what is living and what is non-living, so living means that contains consciousness. Prabhupada: Yes. Svarupa Damodara: And the non-living, that has no consciousness. Prabhupada: No. That is the difference. That is defined in Bhagavad-gita. Avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam tatam. That thing which is spread all over your body, that is avinasi, that is eternal. Antavanta ime deha [Bg. 2.18]. This, what is said… The body is antavantah, perishable. Nityasyoktah saririnah. And the spirit within the body, that is eternal. That they cannot understand. Svarupa Damodara: So we can also say that according to the different shapes of the material bodies and qualities… Prabhupada: Different opportunities… Yes. According to consciousness we have got the shape of the body. If you have got dog’s consciousness, then you get a dog’s body. If you have got a god’s consciousness, you get a demigod’s body. Svarupa Damodara: It is the desire of the spirit soul. Prabhupada: Yes. Ye yatha mam prapadyante. Freedom is given. Krsna says, “Whatever you want, you can take.” Yanti deva-vrata devan pitrn yanti pitr-vratah [Bg. 9.25]. Everything is freedom. Svarupa Damodara: Then why is it in the Vaivarta Purana, after traveling 8,400,000 species of life, we get this human form of life? Is that contradiction with the…? Prabhupada: No. Because in the lower form of life, the progress is by the laws of nature, and in the human form of life, you get consciousness development. Therefore you have got discretion. The other forms, they have no discretion, one after another. Svarupa Damodara: No. My point being the… Some human beings, they come without traveling through these 8,400,000 species. Prabhupada: Then he can come. Svarupa Damodara: So this applies only to those living entities who are born… Prabhupada: They are advanced in consciousness. They are advanced in consciousness. Suppose you are advanced in consciousness. So you are not going to get the dog’s body or cat’s body. You get another human body. Yoga-bhrasto ’bhijayate. Yoga-bhrastah is not ordinary man. He is practicing yoga, but somehow or another could not fulfill. Therefore he gets again human body. He does not get the cat’s body, dog’s body. So he directly comes to the human body. There is no question of evolution. Same example. The apartments are already there. If you can pay more, “Come on, this apartment is ready for you.” Not that you have to come from the lower platform, lower animal apartments. Daiva-netrena. The judgement will be done by the higher authorities. They do not know that. Karandhara: Prabhupada, we should start going back. Prabhupada: Yes. Karmana daiva-netrena. Your work, and supervision—higher authorities. Svarupa Damodara: That is completely in contradiction with Darwin’s theory. Prabhupada: Darwin is a rascal. What is his theory? We kick on your face. That’s all. That is our philosophy. The more we kick on Darwin’s face, the more advanced in spiritual consciousness. He has killed the whole civilization, rascal. Svarupa Damodara: Even all the scientists now, the present scientists, their arguments are based on Darwin’s early theories. Prabhupada: What they are…? Svarupa Damodara: That life started from matter and is evolving from the uni-cellular organisms to the multi-cellular organisms. So that means they are saying that there was no higher species at the beginning of creation. Prabhupada: Nonsense. So why there is now higher species? And the lower species also. As we see at the present moment, there is the most intellectual person and the most foolish ass also… So why do we see all the things simultaneously? Why ass is not abolished? What is their answer? So similarly, formerly also there was. Karandhara: They say, “parallel evolution.” They say in the process of evolution some are advancing and some are remaining stable. Prabhupada: So if that, even parallel, then there is Brahma. He is most advanced. Why do you say there was no human being? There was. Therefore their theory, “In such and such era the human life began,” that is wrong if they accept parallel. They are existing always. And as we see. Now as we see, the trees are there, birds are there, animals are there, human beings are there, God is there, demigod is there. Everything is there. Where is the question of evolution? Simply we have to enter. That’s all. Svarupa Damodara: Do we have anything, Srila Prabhupada, in the reference, saying that all the living entities are already there? Prabhupada: Yes, that jiva-jatisu. Svarupa Damodara: Oh, and that implies? Prabhupada: Jiva-jati, different grades of jiva. Jati, you know jati? Svarupa Damodara: Yes. Prabhupada: Yes. Just like there are different nations. They are already existing. So jati means that. Jati means born of a particular species. That is jati. Jiva-jatisu. Su, plural number. So many jiva-jatisu. He’s simply Bhramadbhih. Just like I am traveling, sometimes America, some Australia, sometimes… But they are already there. I am going sometimes in America, sometimes Australia, sometimes Africa, but they are already there. I am the man; I am traveling. Not that because I have to come to America, I create America. This is nonsense. And there are many countries I have not gone there. Does it mean that they are not existing? They have no even human reason, these rascal scientists. The common sense reason. And Bhagavad-gita clearly says they are already existing. Wherever you like, you can go. You can go even up to the kingdom of God if you so desire. That is stated in the Bhagavad-gita. Svarupa Damodara: I want to know a little more about the… (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
May 12, 1973, Los Angeles