Morning Walk Conversation Prabhupada: The material energy, it is also coming from Krsna. The spiritual en… Krsna Himself is spiritual energy. Exactly like that is. This weather is coming from sun but sun is covered. The weather created by sun makes himself covered; not himself covered, it is covering our eyes. Sun is not covered. My eyes are covered. Therefore material means when our consciousness is not developed. That’s the meaning. It is somehow or other covered. That is material. Where is our scientist? They… The mistake of the scientist is that they do not accept two energies, the material and spiritual. Svarupa Damodara: No. Prabhupada: They accept one energy. We accept also that. But they, defect is they are beginning from the material. That is their method. Just like this weather is beginning from the light and gradually it is becoming dark. So darkest part or the dark part is called material. But the dark is beginning from light, not the light is beginning from dark. That is their method. They are thinking that from matter, consciousness is coming. Now consciousness is there. When it is covered, degraded, that is unconsciousness. So material means when the consciousness is forgetful of Krsna. That is material. Material means gradual development of forgetfulness of Krsna. That is material. And spiritual means full consciousness of Krsna. Is it clear? Try to understand this. Darkness is coming from light. Where the light is not visible that is called darkness. This is not the nature of the sun, this covering, cloudy nature. That is not the… The nature of sun is light, but by the energy of the sun another thing is temporary created which is called mist or darkness. This is temporary. This is not permanent nature. Therefore material nature is temporary and spiritual nature is permanent. So our Krsna consciousness movement is to get out of this temporary nature and go to the spiritual nature, permanent nature. Nobody wants also this temporary nature. Nobody likes this cloudy atmosphere. Svarupa Damodara: The cloudiness is created from the superior energy. Prabhupada: Yes. Svarupa Damodara: So material is created from the superior. Prabhupada: Creator is one. It is always superior. Whatever is created, that is created by Him. Krsna says, aham sarvasya prabhavah. “I am the creator of everything.” So bad or good, everything. Bad and good, that is your creation. Krsna’s creation everything good. God is good. What you think bad, for God is good. Therefore we cannot understand Krsna. He’s doing something. In our consciousness it is bad, but we do not know that for him there is no such thing as good and bad. That we do not know. Krsna is marrying 16,000 wives, somebody’s criticizing, “Oh, He’s so much fond of women.” But we do not see the other side. He has got the power to expand Himself into 16,000 forms. Paramahamsa: If this mist of material nature is temporary, then why bother to disentangle oneself from something transitory? Prabhupada: Why do you take covering? Does man walk naked? Paramahamsa: No. Prabhupada: Why do you take covering? You know everything will be cleared after few hours. Why do you cover? Paramahamsa: It is dangerous now. Prabhupada: Whatever it may be, why do you take this step to avoid this? Krsna-kanti: It’s uncomfortable. It’s not natural. Prabhupada: Yes. That is the Mayavada theory; that everything will uncover automatically, why do you bother? That is nonsense. Karandhara: They will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they’re a dog. Prabhupada: Eh? Eh? Karandhara: The Mayavadis will not be able to be so philosophical in their next lives when they’re dogs or cats. Prabhupada: Yes. Karandhara: They have to have a human body in order to enjoy that philosophy. Prabhupada: Their philosophy is that there is only one—God. So cats and dogs, that is God’s lila. That is their rascal philo… God is making pastimes, lila, by becoming a dog. That is their rascal philosophy. Daridra-narayana. Vivekananda’s philosophy. Narayana has become daridra, poor. Hare Krsna. (pause) So with chemists we have no quarrel if they begin from light. They’re beginning from darkness. That is our contention. We say, “Begin from light.” And they say, “No, begin from darkness.” Because they’re in darkness. One who is in the darkness, from darkness, if he goes to light, he thinks that the darkness is the beginning. Paramahamsa: In comparison, they always compare. Prabhupada: No, no comparison. It is practical. Suppose you have been in the darkness for millions of years and when you come to the light you think that “Oh, from darkness the light has come.” Light, when it becomes dimmed, that is darkness. Not that (from) darkness, light has come. Krsna-kanti: Darkness cannot exist without light. Prabhupada: Yes. Or in the light there is no darkness. When the light is dimmed that is darkness. Similarly, when Krsna consciousness is dimmed, that is material. Krsna-kanti: It’s very wet. (referring to the ground) Prabhupada: Yes. After awaken, when one becomes tired he comes to sleep. Or the life, when it is somehow or other disturbed, sleepless comes. When at night we sleep and get up in the morning, it is not that from sleeping condition this life condition has come. I slept some reason or I was in life condition, but I slept, again I am coming to life. That is their philosophy. Just like a child, baby comes from the womb of the mother. From the day he comes out of the womb, if he thinks, “Now, from this day my life has begun.” That is not the fact. He’s eternal, but he was constructing his body within the womb of the mother, therefore he was unconscious. Now, as soon as the body is finished, he comes out and again comes to consciousness. Karandhara: And again falls asleep at death. Prabhupada: Yes. That is described in the Bhagavad-gita: bhutva bhutva praliyate. Once he comes to awareness and again he’s unconscious. Just like this flower, it has come to now consciousness. Again it will dry and die but the seeds again will grow. Again it will dry. This is material life. And spiritual life means flower only. That’s all. (pause) I have got some nice shirt buttons somebody has given me. I shall never put on shirt, neither our students. I think we shall sell it. Devotee: Buttons? Prabhupada: What is called? Button, is it not button? Shirt-fixing? Collar-fixing? Devotee: Is it a pin or something like this? Prabhupada: Yes, like that…gold. Devotee: Not cuff links. No those are… Prabhupada: Aha, cuffles. Devotee: Oh, jaya. Do you like I buy from you? Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee: I give you my soul for the cuff links? Prabhupada: No, you take it and sell it. (pause) [break] The last four days this students are not clear. Devotee: Man’s best friend. Prabhupada: Hmm. Because he has no knowledge who is the best friend. According to the quality, friend is selected. Karandhara: And one is known by the company he keeps. Prabhupada: Yes. Karanam guna-sango ’sya. The best friend will lead him to take birth in that family. He’ll help him next birth because he’ll always think of dog, so next birth, dog. Yam yam vapi smaran bhavam [Bg. 8.6]. At the time of death, if you are attached to something then you’ll think of it, and next birth is that. Paramahamsa: Srila Prabhupada, if one’s life is achieved by one’s consciousness, how is it one cannot remember one’s previous life? Prabhupada: Do you remember everything what you did last year or yesterday? Paramahamsa: No, I don’t. Prabhupada: So that is your nature. You forget. Paramahamsa: Something. Prabhupada: Something there is possibility of. Something…, somebody forgets more, somebody forgets little. But the forgetfulness is there. Svarupa Damodara: That’s the platform of material nature. Prabhupada: Just like stealing. Somebody’s pick-pocket. Somebody’s dacoit. The stealing is there. Svarupa Damodara: When we sleep, when we dream, are we carried away by the three subtle elements, mind, intelligence… Prabhupada: You are carried always by nature under different conditions. You’re simply being carried by the nature. Prakrteh kriyamanani. You are under the grip of material nature. Just like pulling the ear. Krsna-kanti: By our desires we are pulled? Prabhupada: No. You desire. There it is. That’s how. It is not willingly because you are willing desires against Krsna consciousness. Therefore she’s giving chance, “Come on here. Take stool. Become hog. You wanted to eat stool. Come on.” This is going on. Svarupa Damodara: This also shows the eternal nature of the spirit soul? Prabhupada: No, no, no. That is not eternal. Svarupa Damodara: Because I’m conscious. Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore your consciousness is being revived. Come to the standard of Krsna consciousness, you’ll be happy. That is our business. His consciousness is being misled by so many ways. Therefore we are trying to give him the standard consciousness, “Come to this point, you’ll be happy.” Svarupa Damodara: How to prove that the soul is eternal? Prabhupada: That is the first lesson. You do not understand? You are a child, now you’re a grown up boy. Where is your childhood? Where is that body? Ha? The dead body does not exist but you are existing. That means you’re eternal. Body has changed, but you have not changed. Circumstances have changed, but you have not changed. This is the proof of (indistinct). What do you want more? You may remember that I did yesterday these things, today I remember yesterday’s activities, but your body of yesterday is not this body. Do you admit or not? As a scientist, the body has changed already. He cannot say that 1973, twelfth May yesterday. He cannot say. It is already changed. But you remember everything of yesterday. That is eternity. The body has changed, but you remember everything. Therefore you are eternal, body’s not eternal. This is the proof. Simple proof, even a child can understand. But they’ll not understand. That is the difficulty. Svarupa Damodara: They want some more. Prabhupada: What is that more? It is a simple fact. Just like yesterday, day before yesterday, day before that we saw that stool. We therefore criticize. You are seeing for the last three days the stool, it is not cleansed. But day before yesterday’s body, yesterday’s body is not this body. And my body has changed, but I remember. Therefore I’m eternal. This is the proof. Eternity means I’m so… my body’s changing, but I’m not changing. Just like, I’m old man. I sometimes think, “Oh, I was jumping like this and now I cannot jump.” So my body has changed. But I want to jump. But I cannot do it. So that jumping propensity is my eternal propensity. But due to this body, I cannot do it. This is (indistinct). Karandhara: They would say that, according to their observations, that nature of eternity only lasts one body. Prabhupada: That is their foolishness because, as this body… That is explained in the Bhagavad-gita: tatha dehantara-praptih. As this body’s changing in my experience, similarly, there’s another change. Karandhara: Well, actually, they’re able to observe this change, but they can’t observe that change. Prabhupada: But you cannot observe, your rascal eyes are so imperfect, you cannot observe so many things. That does not mean science. Why don’t you admit your imperfectional senses? You first of all admit the imperfectional senses. You cannot see. You cannot experience. That, does it mean that is science? So many dogs they cannot understand what is the law of nature. Does it mean that nature does not exist? Why do you think your sense are perfect? First of all, admit that you’re the most imperfect. Karandhara: They’ll admit that, but they say the way of becoming perfect is through objective information and experience. Prabhupada: No. Way of becoming perfect is different. You cannot become perfect by your imperfect thinking. How you can become perfect? Paramahamsa: Another question, Prabhupada, that could be raised is that “If the soul is eternal and passes through one body after another, how is not possible that it accepts, let’s say, three, four, five bodies and then dies?” Prabhupada: You are accepting millions of bodies and then die. That you do not know. I say that your body of yesterday is not of this body. So, similarly, if we live for one hundred years, how many bodies you are changing every moment? Just calculate. Karandhara: Thirteen. Prabhupada: Ha? Thirteen? Why thirteen? Karandhara: Every seven years. Prabhupada: No, no, every seven years. I say every second. Every second the blood corpuscles are changing. Is it not? Devotees: Yes. Prabhupada: Then you’re chang… As soon as the blood corpuscle changes, you change your body. You do not know the science. So how many millions of birth you are changing even this experience? Karandhara: That is their stumbling block. They say they want to be able to observe everything with their imperfect senses. Prabhupada: Yes. That is their folly, foolishness. Svarupa Damodara: In the scientific terminology the eternality of the soul can be compared with the conservation of energy? Prabhupada: There is no question of conservation. It is energy. It is always existing. If you say that is conservation of energy then… Svarupa Damodara: No. The definition of the conservation of energy is the energy cannot be created nor destroyed. That means that it is eternal. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that we admit. Original energy of Krsna, that is existing with Krsna and Krsna is eternal. Therefore all His energies are eternal. Karandhara: So the living entity is also eternal. Prabhupada: Just like the sun. Sun, the energy heat and light. If sun is eternal, heat and light (are) eternal. Hmm. What is that? Karandhara: They say energy cannot be created or destroyed, then life cannot be created or destroyed. Prabhupada: We say that. Life is eternal. It is not created nor destroyed. It is covered only for the time. Just like, I’m eternal, but last night I was covered by dreaming, sleeping. So I say “yesterday” and “today.” This is my position. I’m eternal, but because last night I was covered by dreaming, therefore I say “yesterday” and “today.” Devotee: Srila Prabhupada, if material nature is the absence of Krsna consciousness, then where is material? I’ve heard you say that once before… Prabhupada: There is no material. Yes? If you continue Krsna consciousness, there’s nothing material. Just like when we offer this flower in Krsna consciousness, is it material? Devotees: No. Prabhupada: You still can accept anything material? No. So how it becomes? It was material in the tree and it becomes spiritual? No. It is spiritual. So long I was thinking it is meant for my enjoyment that is material. As soon as I take it for Krsna’s enjoyment, it is spiritual. Paramahamsa: So, actually this entire world is spiritual. Prabhupada: Yes. That we want, that engage everything in Krsna’s service. This will be spiritual world. Paramahamsa: So we can also appreciate Krsna’s creation in that light? For example, this is very beautiful because it is Krsna’s. Prabhupada: Yes. We realize that. We don’t say… Just like Mayavadi philosophy says mithya. Jagan mithya. “This world is false.” We don’t say that. We don’t say “jagan mithya.” Devotee: This material nature is just one energy of Krsna acting in a certain way? Prabhupada: Why shall I say…? Krsna has created so many nice things for His enjoyment, why shall I say, “mithya.” Suppose if you create nice house, very good apartment and you call me, “Just see.” And if I say, “It is all mithya.” Paramahamsa: That’s also an offense. Because I can’t enjoy it. Prabhupada: (laughing) Then how much depressed you’ll be. Let’s say I brought this friend and this rascal is saying, “This is mithya.” Karandhara: Sour grapes. Prabhupada: That is explained that asatyam apratistham te, jagad ahur anisvaram [Bg. 16.8]. These rascals, these demons they say like that, that this is asatya, this is untruth. There is no cause. There is no isvara. This is the demoniac declaration. If Krsna is fact, His creation is fact. His energy is fact. Why shall I say false? We don’t say it is false. The Mayavadis say it is false. Krsna-kanti: If someone looks at the Deity of Krsna and thinks it’s only stone or wood, for him it’s still material? Prabhupada: That is his ignorance. How it can be material? The stone is also Krsna’s energy. Just like electricity energy is there everywhere. The electrician knows how to utilize it, how to take electricity. Similarly, Krsna is everywhere, even in the stone. The devotees know how to utilize stone to appreciate Krsna. The devotees know. The rascal, they do not know. Because the devotee has no other view than Krsna. Why stone should be without Krsna? Here is Krsna. That is real oneness. And the Mayavadi philosopher they say oneness, but divide. This is stone, this is not Krsna. Why second? Why you bring another thing? Devotee: Good and bad, evil and… Prabhupada: Yes. Devotee: Is it so for a Krsna conscious man that Krsna is as much in the stone as in the Deity? Prabhupada: Yes. Paramahamsa: Just as much? Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? Paramahamsa: But we order murtis all the way from India? Prabhupada: That is stated that, “Everything is in Me but I’m not there.” This is acintya-bheda… maya tatam idam sarvam jagad avyakta-murtina, mat-sthani sarva-bhutani na caham tesv avasthitah. Everything is Krsna but you cannot worship this bench as Krsna. That is rascaldom. Karandhara: Krsna says, “Worship me in this way.” Prabhupada: Yes. (pause) Just like the sunshine. That is also sun. Is it not? But you cannot say when the sunshine is in the room, you cannot say, “The sun is my room.” This is called acintya-bhedabheda. Svarupa Damodara: Acintya bheda…? Prabhupada: Acintya-bhedabheda, simultaneously one and different. Paramahamsa: But still you said one can see Krsna within the stone. Prabhupada: Yes. Why not? Paramahamsa: And one can worship Him within the stone or within everything. Prabhupada: Yes. We worship everything. We worship everything, see Krsna everywhere. We don’t see the tree. We see Krsna’s energy. Therefore the tree’s also worshipable because Krsna and Krsna’s energy both are worshipable. Therefore we say Hare Krsna. Hare means Krsna’s energy. We worship everything. In our childhood we are taught by our parents, if there is small grain and if it is strut (?) on the feet, we shall pick it up and touch on the forehead. We are taught like this, how to see everything in relationship with Krsna. That is Krsna conscious. We cannot therefore see anything wasted, anything misused. Why you are preaching? Why we are after so many rascals? That his life is being misused. Let us give him some enlightenment. This is our mission. Or let him go to hell. Just like Mayavadi sannyasis, they’re engaged in meditation or in the Himalayas, but we have come to Los Angeles. Why? This is our mission. Oh, these things, these people are being misused under maya, let him gain some enlightenment. This is our mission. We are teaching that, how to utilize everything for Krsna. How to understand Krsna in everything. That is our mission. See Krsna in everything. Yo mam pasyati sarvatra. Everything is there in Bhagavad-gita, why don’t you read? Sarvam ca mayi pasyati, yo mam pasyati sarvatra, “Anyone who sees Me everywhere and sarvam ca mayi pasyati… and everything in Me, he’s perfect.” Karandhara: Prabhupada, we should return to the car. Prabhupada: All right. Yo mam pasyati… (pause) The karmis, they are thinking, “Everything for me.” The jnanis they are thinking, “Why shall I be implicated in this material things?” And we say that there is nothing material. Dovetail everything with Krsna. In the Bhagavad-gita it is said, mam ca yo ’vyabhicarena bhakti-yogena sevate, sa gunan samatityaitan brahma-bhuyaya kalpate [Bg. 14.26]. “Anyone who is engaged in devotional service, he’s immediately promoted to the transcendental platform, brahma.” He becomes brahma. Now, somebody may say, “Oh, we see he has got the same body, how he has become brahma?” And how Krsna says, “Yes, he has already become brahma.” How to adjust? Paramahamsa: Like the flower. Prabhupada: Yes. The same thing. Yes. As soon as everything is understood in Krsna consciousness, that is brahma-bhuta stage. That is liberated stage. Everything is created by Krsna. Everything is meant for Krsna. Everything should be engaged for Krsna. That is Krsna consciousness life. That is perfect life. Somebody asked me, “Why you have come to this country?” It is not your country. I’ve not come to your country, I’ve come to Krsna’s country. (laughter) Devotee: We are trespassing. Prabhupada: Yes. Why shall I come to your country. I’ve come to Krsna’s country. Sukadeva: Prabhupada, there are many impersonalists in Seattle. We have many universities and I’d like to go there and try and defeat them. But sometimes I forget, I cannot remember the scriptures, so what would be the best clue to always defeat them? Prabhupada: Well, if you understand the philosophy without scripture, you can convince them. You can give so many examples. Svarupa Damodara: The weather is getting worse, Srila Prabhupada. Karandhara: It will get worse when you leave, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: When I will… It will get better, as soon as I go away. (devotees sigh) Karandhara: No. No. Prabhupada: It will get…, that is natural. It will not stay. But I’m not going out for this weather, don’t misunderstand me. My physicians asked me, therefore… I’m accustomed to this… (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
May 14, 1973, Los Angeles