Morning Walk Conversation Prabhupada: …two classes of men: the communist and the non- communist. Not exactly communist and capitalist, but communist and non-communist. Out of these two, the communists are going to be powerful. This is the world tendency. So if the world becomes full of communists, then the human civilization will be finished. All rogues and rascals, that’s all. The American government wants to check this tendency. But they cannot check it if they remain “so- called trust in God.” That will not be possible. So according to our proposition… Not only now, it is forever. Two classes of men are there: sura and asura. Surasura. Visnu-bhakto bhaved devah. Deva and sura, the same thing. Asuras tad viparyayah. And the asura, or the demons, godless. So if the Americans remain godless in the name of so-called trust in God, they will not be able to check this communistic movement. They will not be able. Now, if they are serious to check this communistic movement, save the American country as well as the whole world, then they must be very serious to understand what is God and what is trust in God. Otherwise this communistic movement will finish the civilized human society. So you are thoughtful. They must be very serious about it. And this is the only movement, Krsna consciousness, which can make all people actually trust in God and explain what is meant by God. Demons, they… If the communists are demons and the capitalists are also demons, fighting between demons, there will be war and loss of life, but nobody will come out victorious. That is going on. There is occasional world war, but the situation of the world remains the same. No party has become able to change the situation of the world. What do you think, Karandhara? Karandhara: No, no significant change. Prabhupada: Simply they fight and loss of life and money, energy. War must be for the good. If there is some war, it must be for some good. But where is that goodness? The world remains the same; rather, it becomes more worst. Then why fight? But they will fight. Because both of them demons, they will fight. But not for any good result. War means… War is not bad. Just like disease. If somebody is diseased, then he becomes healthy. The whole polluted situation of the body becomes repaired. Just like when you get a boil or dysentery, all the poisons of the body, they become purged out. Then your health becomes nice. That is the law, nature’s law. Similarly, war or famine or pestilence, they are meant for purging out all undesirable men. But the demonic principle is so strong that it is not becoming so. Hare Krsna. Make this approach. The Americans have placed in their constitution, “In God we Trust.” It should be done very scientifically and philosophically, what is God and what is that trust, not a vague idea. Vague ideas will not help. They will not be able to conquer over the atheistic world. Actually, if there is organized party who believe in God factually, then this demon class of men will always be vanquished. Yes. Just like there was war between the surasura, demigods and the asuras. God, Visnu, took side of the demigods and came out victorious. But if both of them are demons, why Visnu will take side of anyone of them? “You fight and go to hell.” That is going on. [break] Umapati: …I think that we were discussing the political possibilities of putting devotees into office, and we came up with the astounding discovery that we almost represent everything that is against western values. We represent austerity. We represent God consciousness. We represent restriction of sexual freedom, intoxication. All the four regulative principles are almost totally in opposite to western desires. Prabhupada: That means western people are all demons. Umapati: So the problem is trying to get into office under those circumstances, to make that known that “We stand for this,” and to have anybody vote for you. Prabhupada: (laughs) Nobody may vote but we must go on preaching. That I have already explained, some of the university. The whole country is illiterate. Does it mean university should be stopped? University must be there. One who is fortunate will come and take education. It is not an argument that “People are illiterate. They don’t care for it. Therefore let the university be closed.” This is no argument. Yasomatinandana: Gradually they will develop attraction. Prabhupada: Yes, we have to work. That is preaching. You don’t think preaching is so easy going. Eating, sleeping, and sometimes chanting, “Haribol,” that’s all. That is not preaching. We must be ready to implant Krsna consciousness ideas, throughout the whole world. Umapati: That probably won’t happen overnight, though. Prabhupada: The Deity worship program is meant for us to keep us safe. If we neglect Deity worship, we shall also fall. But that is not the all duty finished. Arcayam eva haraye pujam yah sraddhayehate. Arca means Deity. If anyone is worshiping the Deity very nicely, but na tad-bhaktesu canyesu, but he does not know anything more, who is devotee, who is non-devotee, what is the duty to the world, sa bhaktah prakrtah smrtah, he is material devotee. He is material devotee. So we have to take the responsibility to understand who is actually a pure devotee and what is our duty to the people in general, and then you make advancement. Then you become madhyama-adhikari. Madhyama-adhikari, advanced devotee. Just like these people, either in India or here, they remain simply churchianity, going to the church without any understanding. Therefore it is failing. It is now… Churches are being closed. Similarly, if you do not keep yourself fit to preach, then your temples will be all closed in due course of time. Without preaching, you’ll not feel enthused to continue the temple worship. And without temple worship, you cannot keep yourself pure and clean. The two things must go on, parallel. Then there is success. In modern time, either Hindus, Muslim or Christian, because in these places there is no teaching of philosophy, therefore they are closing, either mosque or temple or church. They will close. Prajapati: They can show no good result for their activities. Prabhupada: Yes. That is preaching. Therefore we are writing so many books. Unless we take care of the books and preach and read ourself, understand the philosophy, this Hare Krsna will be finished within few years. Because there will be no life. How long one can artificially go on, “Hare Krsna! Haribol!” That will be artificial, no life. Yasomatinandana: That’s right Prabhupada. We are so foolish, we never realize anything unless you tell us like that. Without preaching… Prabhupada: Without preaching, without understanding philosophy, you cannot keep your strength. Everyone should be thoroughly well- conversed with the philosophy which we are putting… That means you must read thoroughly every day. So many books we have got. And Bhagavata is so perfect that any verse you read, you get a new enlightenment. It is so nice. Either Bhagavad-gita or Bhagavata. But it is not ordinary writing. Umapati: I have tried to put your Bhagavad-gita into some schools, and they say, “Well,” some of them, if they do have a Bhagavad-gita, they say, “Well, we have a Bhagavad-gita.” I say, “This is an entirely different understanding of the Bhagavad-gita,” and they say, “Well, it’s just somebody else’s opinion and we don’t have that much interest in a variety of opinions on the same book.” Prabhupada: It is not the opinion. We are placing the…, as it is, without opinion. Umapati: Well. Those are those terms. It is very difficult to overcome those… Prabhupada: So preaching is always difficult. That I have repeatedly saying. You cannot take preaching very easy-going. Preaching must be fight. Do you mean to say fighting is easy thing? Fighting is not easy thing. Whenever there is fight, there is danger, there is responsibility. So preaching means… What is the preaching? Because people are ignorant, we have to enlighten them. That is preaching. Nara-narayana: When you came to the western world, no one anywhere believed that it would be successful I think. But actually, it has become very successful, by preaching. Prabhupada: I myself did not believe I shall be successful, what to speak of others, but because I did in the proper line, so it has become successful. Yasomatinandana: Yes, Krsna is so kind that we expect something and He gives us hundred times more. Prabhupada: Oh yes. Yasomatinandana: So if we simply follow your instructions, then I am sure that it will come out glorious. Nara-narayana: So if we are in the proper line, then our political activities also can become successful? Prabhupada: Oh yes. Why not? Krsna was in politics. So Krsna consciousness means all-round: social, political, philosophical, religious, cultural, everything. It is not one-sided. They take it as… They do not know. Therefore they are thinking it is a religious movement. No, it is all-including, all-including, all-pervasive. Umapati: Well, they have incorporated a particular philosophy into the constitution requiring separation of church and state, what they call separation of church and state in this country. Prabhupada: Yes, this is… We have already separated. Catur-varnyam maya. Brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. That is already separated. Umapati: So there are certain restrictions about religious organizations entering politics. Prabhupada: So what does it mean? Christians, they do not take part in politics? Umapati: Well, they can’t do it as… Karandhara: Not the churches. Prabhupada: No, not the churches. Our grhasthas will take part. The sannyasis will give advice. Directly the grhasthas will fight. Grhastha, not grhastha. There should be an administrative class. That is… Now it is prescribed in the Bhagavad-gita. There should be four classes: brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. Now, it is spoken by God. Therefore it should be rejected? Does it mean? God is for everything. What is this nonsense? And Krsna acted as ksatriya. Therefore He should not be God? Is that very good argument? God is all-inclusive. And religion means God’s word, carrying out God’s word. That is religion. So how you can make separate? Karandhara: Well, you can’t, but they do. Prabhupada: They do everything, but they are demons. They do mental concoction. Karandhara: Basically, they want (indistinct). Prabhupada: Why these politician says, “In God we believe, we trust”? Why this nonsense? Umapati: They fear theocracy. They fear being ruled by a priestly class. That is a very old fear in the west. Prabhupada: No, no, that’s all right. But if the politicians, administration, trust in God, that becomes religious. How they separate? Currency note is economic problem. So how they are mixing with God? They are contradictory. You cannot separate God from any field of activities. And religion, they do not know what is the meaning of religion. Our definition of religion is to abide by the order of God. So does it mean, the politicians they do not abide by the orders of God? Then why do they write, “In god we trust”? Karandhara: Well before, traditionally… Prabhupada: Not before or now. What we are speaking on the actual fact, that how they are writing, “In God we trust.” As soon as you bring in God, that is religion. That is general meaning. Karandhara: There is a movement to take that off the money. Prabhupada: Therefore we have to start this movement seriously, not to take that. You cannot change it. Then you become demons. Therefore I am warning you that before they, these rascals change, you take the advantage of it, that “You cannot change. Then you become demons, you (are) animals. If you withdraw your trust from God, then you are animals. So we are not going to be governed by the animals.” That should be the people’s voice. Educate people to become Krsna conscious and they will yell, “No, we are not going to be governed by the animals. We want real men.” That should be your demand. Therefore I am warning you, that before they do that, you become strong, so that they cannot do it. Rather, they may understand, “Yes, what we are speaking is all right.” That is preaching. Nara-narayana: Actually, when they formed the country and made the constitution, the concept was they were basically they believed in God, but they were afraid that some religion would become politically powerful and disturb the… Prabhupada: So what does…? But that means they do not understand what is meant by religion. They are thinking religion means some fanatical faith. They are meaning that. That is the whole world conception of religion. But actual religion we are now preaching, actual, what is religion. Religion means… Just like Krsna says, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam: [Bg. 18.66] “Give up all rascal religion. Surrender unto Me.” So who is a sane man who will deny, “No, I don’t surrender to God”? Who is a sane man? He must be insane. Anyone who says that “I don’t like God, I don’t like to surrender unto Him,” then he must be insane. He has already surrendered. He is going on under the condition of surrender, but it is not done very… Just like a prisoner. He is already surrendered to the government. Still, he says, “I don’t care for government.” This is the position. He’s a madman. The state arrests him, kicks him, and puts him in the jail. Still, he says, “I don’t care for government.” So what can be done? “We don’t care for the government.” Just like Gandhi started civil disobedience movement, disobedience to the government laws, but all the whole stock was put into jail and they were beaten with shoes. But still, they said, “No, we are…” This is an example. Similarly, everyone is obeying, surrendering to God. But because they are rascal and fools, they are denying that we have surrendered. This is their position, madness. nobody can stay without surrendering to God. It is not possible. Umapati: Well, in a madhouse, a sane man is the only one considered mad. Prabhupada: Yes. So, “It is folly to be wise where ignorance is bliss.” That is already there. So we have to act by the order of Krsna, not by the votes of the madmen. Just see the fun. Everyone is under control. Who is free? It is simply illusion. They are thinking, “I am free.” Nobody is free. Under the stringent laws of nature, and still, he is thinking, “I don’t care for God.” This is madness. This is madness. Already under the laws of God, but still, he’s protesting, “No, I don’t care for God. There is no God.” So we have to save these madmen from further deterioration. This is Krsna consciousness movement. Umapati: Can a living entity ever lose his existence? Prabhupada: What you have studied in the Bhagavad-gita? Umapati: Well I have never seen that it’s possible. Prabhupada: No, what is your understanding from Bhagavad-gita? Umapati: That we are eternal, that we have always been and always will be. Prabhupada: Yes, then how you can think of it? Why do you question this? Umapati: Well, because God’s inconceivable. I just… Prabhupada: No, that is not possible. He is eternal. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. He is accepting the different types of bodies, but he is eternal. One body finished. That does not mean he is finished. He is transferred to another body according to his desire. He is never finished. Nityah sasvato ’yam na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Yasomatinandana: Avinasi tu tad viddhi. Prabhupada: Ah, avinasi tu tad viddhi yena sarvam idam. [break] …is correct. We can face any so-called philosopher, any. Any so-called scientist. Any so-called politicians. You must be strong enough to have your firm conviction, that “We can face anyone rascal and defeat him.” [break] …and logic, argumentum vaculum. You know that? In logic there is a thesis or argumentum vaculum. Means no argument, but with stick and gun, you see. “If you don’t believe, then here is stick and gun.” That is called argumentum vaculum. So we have to make our position so strong that anyone who does not believe in God, he should be finished. Umapati: We had a president that used to believe in that. He is finished. Prabhupada: (laughs) No, but don’t think like that. But there are two kinds of business: paritranaya sadhunam vinasaya ca duskrtam [Bg. 4.8]. To give protection to the devotees and killing the unbeliever. These are stated in the Bhagavad-gita. [break] Yes. Government has got two departments: law and order department, military department. Why? Two things must… [break] This is their business, sudra business. Sudra business. Sudras, they have no knowledge. They commit mistake over and over. Therefore brahmana required to guide the ksatriya, the vaisya and the sudra. Therefore they are guru. Otherwise, they will commit mistake, more or less. It is practical. Just in your country, you have all elected Mr. Nixon as president, and again you are protesting. Why you are protesting? You have already elected him. What is the reasons? Karandhara: Well, he’s a rascal. Prabhupada: (laughs) That’s all. This kind of election is rascal election. It has no meaning. Therefore the public must know whom to elect and how to elect. That should be our propaganda. Because nowadays it is democratic government, teach people how to select the real leader. Real leader means who does not commit mistake, who is not illusioned, who does not cheat and who has no imperfect senses, who has, or, other words, one who has got perfect senses. So if you say, “How it is possible for the conditioned soul?” “Yes, it is possible if you follow the perfect.” Just like we are doing. We are following Krsna. He does not commit mistake, He is not illusioned, His senses are not imperfect, and He does not cheat. We are following. Therefore, although we are imperfect, because we are following the perfect, our proposition is perfect. A child may be illiterate, but when he’s taught, “Write A like this,” and he follows that, he becomes literate. This is the policy. Nara-narayana: Srila Prabhupada, many years ago you once gave the example that when the master craftsman is working and he has got an apprentice, when the apprentice works, it is also considered the same quality because he is under the direction of the master. Prabhupada: Yes, if you are under direction of a perfect teacher, then your conclusion is perfect. The difficulty is that we are following imperfect teachers. Blind men. And what is the benefit of following a blind man? If the man is himself a blind man and if he follows another blind man, what benefit he will get? Both of them will fall into the ditch. That is going on. Just like this rascal Guruji Maharaja. He is a rascal and he is preparing so many rascals. And there are so many others. They are doing the same mischief, and there is no control by the government. The government is rascal. Government does not know who is real, who is imitation. Otherwise they should have checked immediately. But they do not check. They do not know. Prajapati: In the constitution is written in religious freedom. You should let… Anyone who wants to practice anything, it’s all right in the constitution. Prabhupada: Religious freedom means everyone is rascal and every religion is rascaldom. So how they can check? They cannot check. Let it be. Go on. Karandhara: It also says that has restrictions. Religious practices which harm people or are detrimental to the public good, they are checked. Prabhupada: So… Now here, why do they not check? A rascal, cheater, and he is presenting himself as God, and why the government is allowing him? Rather, we should bring a case that why government, against the constitution, is allowing this rascal that he is declaring that he is God? What qualification he has got? let it be decided in the court. We should do that. Svarupa: We have to make definition of religion. Prabhupada: That we shall give in the court. “First of all this man is declaring himself as God, cheating. Why he should not be stopped?” Let there be case. This should be done. Yasomatinandana: Just like Bhaktivinoda Thakura. Prabhupada: Yes. No. If the constitution is that, that in the name of religion somebody cheats, the government should take action, so here it is being done. So we have to maintain so many departments to fight with these wrongdoers. Why not make a test case that “This man is declaring himself God. How he is God? Let him prove in the court.” Why not institute a case? Umapati: Actually, the people feel helpless. They feel there is nothing they can do anyway, about anything. That’s why they are engaging so much in intoxication. They feel hopeless under this government. Prabhupada: That is the defect, that the government itself is imperfect. How they can check? Umapati: Well, they’re so foolish. There was an article in the paper the other day about this shot going to Jupiter and the scientists were described, the scientists that everybody is supposed to depend upon, they were described as biting their fingernails in the hopes that everything would come out all right. Prabhupada: What is that? Yasomatinandana: They said that they were simply taking chances that it might come out all right. They were not sure themselves. Prabhupada: That everyone is taking chance. A poor man is taking chance to become rich man. So what is the difference between the poor man taking chance and the scientist? [break] Yasomatinandana: :…which into all the characteristics are described in Divine and Demoniac natures. This modern world fits into all the demoniac qualities… Prabhupada: Yes, because they are godless. Whole modern world is godless. They don’t think of God very seriously. Everyone. They have described it as “Opiate,” what is that? Karandhara: “Opium of the people.” Prabhupada: Yes. They think, “Those who are religious, they are simply wasting their time.” Therefore communist country, they are completely against religion. They cannot allow their people to waste their time. That is their philosophy. This is the condition of the world. Karandhara: Because the monarchs of the past days, they used religion to suppress the people so severely in Russia that… Prabhupada: Well, something wrong was done; therefore everything is wrong. If somebody, he might have seen some counterfeit coin, does it mean the whole currency is counterfeit? You cannot say like that. Nara-narayana: The sudra mentality does not know how to correct the situation. They try to make liberty for themselves without instituting real religion again. [break] Prabhupada: This idea also. Now there should be examination whether so-called brahmanas, they are actually following the brahmana regulative principle and chanting the mantra regularly. Otherwise they should be converted again sudra. If we become safe simply by having a thread and do not do properly, then what is this? This should be examined. Every individual should be asked, “Now chant this Gayatri-mantra.” He must. Are they doing properly? Karandhara: Yes. Prabhupada: Then it is all right. Otherwise, simply by name, so- called sacred thread holder will not do. Then again the same brahminical class as in India. [break] …Parasurama. You know Parasurama? Karandhara: The incarnation? Prabhupada: Ah. Because the ksatriyas were not doing exactly, he twenty-one times massacred them. Finish! And those who, ksatriyas, fled from India, they came to Europe. So the European means they are coming from the ksatriya descendant, but they have forgotten their own culture. Indo-aryan. [break] …strong, then there is no doubt he will be able to control all over the world. That’s a fact. But we must keep ourself spiritually strong. Apani acari prabhu jive sikhaila. Just Caitanya Mahaprabhu, He was behaving in His life and that He was teaching. [break] …behave like spiritual man. Then you can teach. If you don’t behave, then how you can teach? [break] …was brought here. It is more important than the Ganges. [break] One side, there is unrestricted sex life, and other side, stop population. But they cannot take this restricted sex life. Only fault! So if you restrict your sex life that “I shall not beget more than one child or two child,” then where is the question of this abortion and contra…? But they, that they cannot. They will have unrestricted sex life; at the same time, they will check overpopulation. Prajapati: They trust the doctors, Srila Prabhupada, the medical men. Prabhupada: Whatever… His fault is that “I can restrict. I will not have sex life unless it is needed for begetting children.” Prajapati: The psychologists say it is unhealthy to go without sex life. The men these people trust, the psychologists, psychiatrists, say it is unhealthy. Prabhupada: Yes, that is also, we know. But there is a process. Just like brahmacari process is there, sannyasi process is there. So if you adopt the process, you can restrict. [break] Prajapati: …told Srila Prabhupada, that it was published in a nationwide magazine. They showed that where people’s trust was. They weren’t trusting anything very much, but they trusted the medical people number one, and organized religion as such was way, way down, number eight or so. Why are people trusting the doctors so much? Prabhupada: Because they are under this impression the doctors are scientifically advanced. But the doctors’ science is also imperfect. Because they do not know what is the soul. They do not believe in soul. Karandhara: They trust the doctors the first, and they trust television the second. Prabhupada: Television. Karandhara: Whatever they see on television, they accept. Prabhupada: Why they give so much authority to television? Karandhara: Well, everyone watches it. So they just become indoctrinated. Prajapati: That is their altar in their home. It is in a permanent place in the center of their house, and they put flowers on top and they worship like that. Prabhupada: (laughing) Hare Krsna. Umapati: It’s intoxication also. Prabhupada: After all, they accept authority. Either the doctor or the television, is it not? Yasomatinandana: Now they should accept Bhagavad-gita. Prabhupada: Yes. They cannot say that they don’t want authority. They cannot say. The authority is already there. Karandhara: Well, the common people are crying for authority, leadership. Prabhupada: Therefore you have to teach them how to elect leader. These are the qualification of the leaders. He must not be sinful. Then he can be. [break] …people will find in our camp. [break] Prajapati: :…one philosopher atheist by the name Bertrand Russell, he tries to prove that God does not exist by saying that people who say God exists, say that God is, everything has a cause and that the first cause is God, and Bertrand Russell says, “Well, if everything has a cause, then God also must have a cause. So that, there must be no God.” Prabhupada: If God has cause, then he is not God. That is the difference between God and everything. Everything has got cause, but God has not cause. Therefore he is God. That, the rascal, he does not know. He equalizes God and everything on the same level. Then what is the meaning of God? If He hasn’t got the extraordinary qualification, then how he is God? He is everything. He does not know. Why there is distinction between God and everything? Because God is not caused by everything, but everything is caused by God. That is the difference. [break] …is equal to God, then everything is God. That is going on, Mayavada philosophy. [break] Umapati: I just know when I close my eyes, it’s dark. Prabhupada: Yes. [break] …of the same quality, then what is the necessity of another God? It is a conclusion like this, that in the hospital everyone is patient. Therefore doctor is also patient because he’s in the hospital. In the prisonhouse they’re all prisoners. Therefore the superintendent of police he is also prisoner. Or the governor comes to see, visit, he is also prisoner. It is conclusion like that. God means He has got a special potency that He exists without any cause. Sva-rat. This word is used in Bhagavatam, sva-rat: “completely independent.” Who is that rascal, Bernard Russell? He is a well… Yasomatinandana: Bertrand Russell. Yeah, British philosopher. He died probably. He died long time ago? Umapati: He is very fashionable. He was leader of anti-war demonstrators, and he was very man-conscious, thinking that man could solve all his problems. Prabhupada: But he could not solve his own problems. He died. So was he a man or dog? [break] Yasomatinandana: …philosophy. Because this whole world is made of asses, therefore asses’ philosophy is given so much importance, donkeys. Prajapati: Thank you, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Jaya (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
December 12, 1973, Los Angeles