Morning Walk Conversation Prabhupada: …it will be constituted, that. Their business will be to exploit the poor citizens. And they will be embarrassed and harassed so much: by one side, no sufficient rain, and therefore scarcity of food, and the other side, taxation by the government. In this way, the people will be so much harassed that they’ll give up their home and go to the forest. Very piti… Unless they take to Krsna consciousness, they’ll not be saved. The varnasrama college has to be established immediately. Everywhere, wherever we have got our center, a varnasrama college should be established to train four divisions: one class, brahmana; one class, ksatriya; one class, vaisya; and one class, sudra. But everyone will be elevated to the spiritual platform by the spiritual activities which we have prescribed. There is no inconvenience, even for the sudras. Passerby: Jayo! Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. Bhagavan: Are sudras supposed to take sannyasa also? Prabhupada: No, why? Bhagavan: Sudras… Prabhupada: Those who are sudras, they should not be allowed to take sannyasa. Only those who are qualified brahmanas, they’ll be allowed to take sannyasa. Bhagavan: Ksatriyas used to take sannyasa too? Prabhupada: Ksatriyas… Some of them. Not all. Guru dasa: Yudhisthira Maharaja? Prabhupada: Eh? Guru dasa: Yudhisthira Maharaja. Prabhupada: They did not take sannyasa, but they left home. There is no need of accepting sannyasa. One has to perform the devotional activities. That is real thing. Simply by changing dress, one does not improve. Unless he takes to the, seriously, principles of devotional service. But in the Kali-yuga, they’ll think, “Because I have changed my dress, I have become a big sannyasi.” You see? “Because I have got a sacred thread, now I am a brahmana.” No. There must be regular training. Hare Krsna. Jagadisa: Srila Prabhupada, in a varnasrama society is… Prabhupada: Eh? Jagadisa: In a varnasrama society, are most of the citizens sudras? Prabhupada: Eh? Jagadisa: Are the majority of citizens sudras? In a varnasrama society? Prabhupada: Yes. The number of sudras are always bigger. Just like in University education. The, the number of graduates and post- graduates, they’re less. Others are big, number bigger. Bhagavan: The whole idea is that at the end of everyone’s life, everyone is required to leave home, perform devotional activities, but not necessarily take sannyasa. Prabhupada: Devotional activities, either he leaves from home or not leaves, that doesn’t matter. It must continue from the very beginning. For the management of affairs, we require to divide. Because there are different classes of brain, so those who have very intellectual brain, they should become brahmanas. Those who are fit for management and protection, they should be trained as ksatriya. And those who are fit for producing food, taking care of the cows, they should be trained as vaisya. And the balance, they’re all sudras. This is the division. You… Everywhere you’ll find this division, natural. One class of men, very intelligent. One class of men, very strong, good brain for management, administration. (aside) Jaya. One class of men, fit for tilling the ground, field, and produce food, take care of the cows. And the balance, sudra. That’s all. So in our society, this division should be there. The most intelligent class of men, they should be engaged in preaching, reading books and instructing, taking care of Deity worship, temple, and another class should be strong managers, that things are going on nicely. Everyone is engaged, not that eating and sleeping. Everyone must be engaged, employed. So, so if one is very much adapted for eating and sleeping, he should be engaged with plows. You see. He must be activity. Otherwise, there must be dysentery, eating and sleeping. He cannot digest. Yes. So in this way, our society should be managed. Not that “Give me second initiation, a sacred thread.” And after getting it, business finished: “Now I’m liberated. Let me eat and sleep.” This should be stopped. We have got fifty bighas of land, and I have calculated in Mayapura, setting aside twenty bighas for the temple and grazing ground for the cows, thirty bighas of land. The production should be three hundred mounds of grains. And three hundred mounds of grain, I have calculated. How much you can…? Bhagavan: Fifteen hundred. Prabhupada: No. According to our present calculated, about 180 mounds. So there should be 120 mounds excess of grain. Instead of excess, they want ten thousand rupees for maintenance. This is… This management is going on. These things were not discussed in GBC? So what kind of discussion was there? Simply talking? No practical? And the estimate of budget was presented for ten thousand rupees per month. And… And when it was scrutinizingly studied, immediately it came down to six thousand. So what kind of budget? So management should be in that way, that nobody is sitting idly. Automatically he’ll fall sick. Sickness means idleness. Or excess eating, sleeping. No excess, no less. Yuktahara-viharasya yogo bhavati duhkha-ha. Yukta. Yukta means actually what you need. (aside:) Hare Krsna. So everywhere, in each center, this system should be introduced, and there must be practical application of the varnasrama. At the same time, this program of devotional service. Then it will go on very nicely. Hrdayananda: Should devotees be formally designated in a particular occupation? Prabhupada: Eh? No. Devotees are devotees. Actually devotees are above this brahmana, ksatriya, vaisya, sudra. But for management of material things, we have to divide. Just like in the body there are divisions. There are… Krsna. Krsna was acting as a ksatriya. In His boyhood, He was acting like a vaisya. But Krsna is neither ksatriya nor, nor brahmana. This is the example. He was a cowherd boy. That is business of vaisya. And when He was fighting in the battlefield, He was a ksatriya. He was marrying as a ksatriya. So although He was acting sometimes as ksatriya, sometimes as vaisya, but He’s neither of these. So devotee is like that. He may act in any position, but He is above all the material conception of life. That is perfection. Hare Krsna, Hare Krsna… Nitai: Srila Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Eh? Nitai: What should the ksatriyas be taught? Prabhupada: Ksatriyas should be taught that he is manager. He must see that everyone is engaged. And if there is any fight, they must come forward to fight. This is ksatriya’s business. There may be fight. Somebody may attack us. Not that chanting, “Hare Krsna Hare Krsna Krsna Krsna…” No. They must come forward. “Yes, we are prepared to fight.” That is ksatriya. Tamala-Krsna: Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Eh. Tamala-Krsna: In our centers we are awarding brahmana initiation, second initiation… Prabhupada: No, no. Initiation should go on. Even… You do not understand what I have said, that that is for Vaisnava. A Vaisnava and Visnu… Just like Krsna is Visnu, He’s not human being, but He was acting like human being, similarly, Vaisnava is transcendental. But for proper management of the material world, one should be acting like brahmana, one should be acting like ksatriya. That is required. Just like actually we are doing so. Some of you are preaching, and some of you are cleansing the temple. It does not mean that a sannyasi who is preaching, he is better than that man who is cleansing. The… Their position as Vaisnava is the same. But for the management, one is cleansing, one is seeing the construction, one is going to preach, like that. That should be there. It is not that “Because I have taken sannyasa, therefore I cannot any more do anything.” If need be, he has to act as ksatriya. Or a sudra. It doesn’t matter. Hrdayananda: Oh. Prabhupada: Doesn’t matter. But manage, for management, this division must be there. Otherwise it will be mismanagement. Yes. A Vaisnava coming to the position of doing the work of a sudra does not mean he has become sudra. He’s Vaisnava. Try to understand this point. Just like in the stage. If you want to play something, one must be king, one must be queen, one must be…, but neither of them king or queen. That is stage play. Similarly to manage things in the material world we have to… Guna, karma. Karma there must be. Therefore the karma should be done, executed, according to quality. Atreya-rsi: So in our Movement, the leaders must decide how every devotee and every resource is engaged properly. Prabhupada: That is leadership. That is leadership. The… Which man is fitted for which work. Atreya-rsi: Yes. Utilization of all resources… Prabhupada: Yes. Atreya-rsi: …including devotees and funds and everything. Prabhupada: Then… The first thing is that we should see that everyone is engaged. How he should be engaged, that requires leadership. But the first business is to engage everyone. Nobody should be without engagement. Then it will be idle worse, works… What do you call? Idle brain is devil’s workshop. And the devil is kamini-kancana, woman and money. This is devil. So if you remain idle, then you shall think of devil. So we should see that everyone is engaged properly. Hare Krsna. Jaya. [break] …instruction in this connection is very important. Everyone should be trained as Vaisnava. At the same time, he should work in different position for management. So if our men are not prepared—Tamala Krsna Maharaja—for doing the plowing work, then what is the use of purchasing land? Tamala Krsna: They are not prepared. Prabhupada: Eh? Tamala Krsna: They are not prepared. Prabhupada: Then? You have to engage laborer and spend two hundred rupees per head at least, including salary and food, and the production is nil. In this way, there must be ten thousand, twenty thousand expenditure. Am I right or not, that “You bring money some way from anywhere, and let us spend lavishly?” What kind of management this is? We should consider the money, after all, is earned with hard labor. So somebody will bring money with hard labor, and another body will spend like irresponsible prince; that should be stopped. That is management. [break] …especially is that the religion means to make a class of men, simply idle… What is? Opiate…? What is called? Devotees: Opiate of the people. Prabhupada: Therefore they are against religion. But actually, if we show that we are producing, we are managing, we are educating, then we can counteract the communist tendency. But they are seeing that, that escaping. They say, “They escape responsibility of worldly life and they’re indulging in some religious…” That is the tendency. All… Everywhere the government is complaining like that. Therefore they do not want to increase the number of temples, increase the number of devotees. They do not want. Because they say, “These are a class of idle men. They cannot do anything, and they take to this religious life.” That is the tendency. They are feeling like that. But if you show that you are actually doing something ideal, then they will appreciate. Make a small unit of community and show ideal life, not idle life. Ideal life. Then this mis… That… Now in Bombay, they have refused. Because they are under the impression that “They, these Europeans have come here under some sentiment, and what is the use?” They have taken some plea and rejected our… [break] …is there. As we are making counterpropaganda against maya, the maya is also very strong. She will also make propaganda against you, very strong. So unless you become very sincere devotee, daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14], then it will not be possible to conquer over maya. You’ll be succumbed. Hare Krsna. [break] …taranti te, mam eva ye prapadyante mayam etam taranti te. In India the, the brahmana class, they say, “Oh, I am born in brahmana family. Why shall I do this work?” You see. Therefore the whole society has gone to hell. In your country still, they accept any kind of work. It doesn’t matter. And here, in India, if he happens to be a brahmana, he’ll not take any kind of work. Means… Just like plowing. He’ll not agree. Therefore so much land. The ksatriya is thinking, “I am ksatriya.” The brahmana is thinking, “I am brahmana.” And the land is lying fallow. There is no production. He will go to the office and fight with the pen as a ksatriya. And instead of studying Vedas, he’ll study the rules and regulations given by the office. But he’ll not come to plow. Therefore this scarcity of food. He’ll go to a mill to work as ordinary laborer. (Hindi) He’ll not come. So much land we see lying unutilized. And they’re crying for grain. Why? The same example. I was writing that in New York City, the whole city is full of dirty things, garbage, for want of cleaners, and you go to the Central Park, you’ll find so many hippies are lying down idle. Atreya-rsi: Unemployment. Prabhupada: Not employment. They’ll not work. That means mismanagement. Why they should remain down? Why they should remain without any employment? But the government is not doing that. Devotee: They do not feel inspired. Prabhupada: Eh? Devotee: They do not feel inspired. No one has desire. Prabhupada: That, that means mismanagement. You had no desire to take to Krsna consciousness, but you have been taken to it by some, some way or other. That is management. Hrdayananda: Jaya, Prabhupada. Prabhupada: That is management. Hrdayananda: You are expert manager. Prabhupada: A child does not want to go to school, but it is the duty of the parent to send him to the school by some way or other. So that is government’s duty, that a man should be employed according to his capacity. There should be no unemployment. That is very dangerous position of the society. Now this unemployment question is very strong all over the world. They’ll plan that “This government is not good. That system is not good. He’s not good.” And he’ll do nothing. He’ll personally do nothing. Just like the hippies, they criticize everyone, but he’ll not do anything. It is all… These descriptions are there in the Srimad-Bhagavatam. We are going too far? Employed… [break] …from the government to utilize this land. You see? So much. Everywhere you’ll find. Everywhere you’ll find. Who was with me in London? Devotee: Yeah. Last time, last summer? Prabhupada: Letchmore Heath. Devotee: Yeah? Prabhupada: So much, lying vacant. They have taken it into consideration that “What is the use of working in the land? Better kill one animal and eat easily.” Because he doesn’t care for sinful activities. The… “If I can eat the cow, why shall I take so much trouble to till the…?” This is going on, all over the world. Indian man: Employment means now just to cut the money and not to work. No work. Prabhupada: Yes. [break] The same… Employment, even for the woman, the caraka. You see? Gandhi also studied this. There must be… Woman should be engaged for weaving. What is called? Devotee: Spinning. Prabhupada: Spinning, yes. Everyone should be engaged. That is management. So all GBC members must see that in every temple, everyone is engaged. Brahmananda: That is the meaning of leadership. Prabhupada: That is the meaning of leadership. Hrdayananda: And that all the devotees are protected. Prabhupada: Eh? Hrdayananda: And all the devotees are protected. Prabhupada: Yes. Everyone should be engaged. And if everyone is engaged, he’ll never fall sick. Yes. [break] …the farmers, their son, they’re giving up the farming business. Hamsaduta: Going to the city. Prabhupada: Going to the city. In your country also? Atreya-rsi: Yes, Srila Prabhupada. Prabhupada: Or you have nothing to do with farming. Atreya-rsi: Excuse me? Prabhupada: Your country, there is nothing to do with farming. You have got petrol. Atreya-rsi: No. No there is a lot of good land, but they’re not developing it. Devotee: Just selling petrol. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, if they can get money underground, “Why shall I work?” (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
March 12, 1974, Vrndavana