Room Conversation
with devotees about
Twelfth Canto Kali-yuga,
and Conversation with Guest
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
June 15, 1974, Paris

Srila Prabhupada: The democracy also is described. In Kali-yuga.

Satsvarupa: Eleventh Canto?

Prabhupada: In Twelfth Canto. [break] …it is stated.

tasmat ksudra-drso martyah ksudra-bhagya mahasanah kamino vitta-hinas ca svairinyas ca striyo ’satih

“Gradually people will become dwarf, will die very soon, mostly unfortunate, eating too much, and very much sexually agitated, no money, and independent, and the women, all unchaste.” Just see. Everything’s coming true. Rajan,

rajanas ca praja-bhaksah sisnodara-para dvijah dasyutkrsta janapada vedah pasanda-dusitah

“The cities will be full of rogues and thieves.” Just see.

Yogesvara: That’s Paris.

Prabhupada: Anywhere. In Calcutta it was dangerous to go out because the next… You do not know whether you’ll come back. People are so afraid. He’s going to work in the office. It will be God’s grace if he returns back. It is such a city. Actually so happened. We were sitting, I was at that time in a… I was guest in our life member’s. Sitting in morning, afternoon, o’clock (?). “Oh, that gentleman is killed.” He was very important businessman. He went to the temple, a Marwari, and on his coming back, he was killed from the backside. Life is still so, but it is little diminished. [break] …about so-called saintly persons, they are: tapasvino grama-vasah. “The so-called yogis, they’ll live in the town.” Actually, the yogis have no business in the town. They should go to a secluded place. But they will live in… Just like the other… He’s living in Paris City, and he’s a yogi.

Yogesvara: This is all from the Twelfth Canto?

Prabhupada: Yes. Foretold, five thousand years ago. Here said, tapasvino grama-vasa nyasino ’tyartha-lolupah: “And the sannyasis, they’ll be too much greedy about money.”

Yogesvara: Just see.

Prabhupada: Yes.

hrasva-kaya mahahara bhury-apatya gata-hriyah sasvat katuka-bhasinyas caurya-mayoru-sahasah

Patim tyaksyanti nirdravyam bhrtya apy akhilottamam. “The natural tendency will be to give up, divorce, husband, especially when he has no sufficient money.” The wife will divorce. Or the husband has no sex power. The wife… The divorce case takes place in two: when the sex indulgence is not very good, and when the husband has no money. Here it is:

vaso ’nna-pana-sayana-vyavaya-snana-bhusanaih hinah pisaca-sandarsa bhavisyanti kalau prajah

“In the Kali-yuga, the general public, having no residence, vasa,” you see. I was surprised when I saw in the beginning that they are lying down on the street in the Bowery. They have no place. They pay one dollar, and the Lion’s… What is that?

Satsvarupa: Salvation Army.

Prabhupada: No, no, no. The Lions…

Yogesvara: Lion’s Club?

Prabhupada: Lion’s Range, or something. They give shelter at night. They pay one dollar and lie down. And morning, they go away. There I have seen many signboards in Bowery Street.

Yogesvara: They call them “Flophouses”.

Prabhupada: Anyway. So vasah anna. Food. Vasah anna. Vasa means residence. Anna means food. Pana means drinking, milk or water or whatever. You require something drinking. And sayana, sleeping or lying down on bed. Vasa, anna, pana, sayana, and vyavaya, sex. Sex also required. Vyavaya, snana. I have seen in New York. They have no… In a humbug, they have no place for taking bath. They have to go elsewhere. Sometimes some friends come to take bath. The, our students, they were coming to take bath in my bathroom. So snana. So these things, nil. “When these things will be nil,” vasa, anna, pana, sayana, vyavaya, snana, bhusanaih, “and dress,” hinah, “being devoid of all these things,” pisaca-sandarsa bhavisyanti, “they will be just like, what is called, urchins.”

Yogesvara: Pisaci.

Prabhupada: These hippies, they are exactly this. They have no place to sleep, no nothing of the sort and looking like big, big hair. Pisaci. Pisaca. What is the English?

Nitai: Ghost?

Prabhupada: Ghost, yes. Ghost, yes. Ghost-like. Hinah pisaca-sandarsa bhavisyanti kalau prajah: “In the Kali-yuga, the prajah, people in general, devoid of residence and proper food, then proper drinking, resting place or sex or bathing and dress, they’ll look like ghost.” Then?

kalau kakinike ’py arthe vigrhya ca tyakta-sauhrdah tyaksyanti ca priyan pranan hanisyanti svakan api

“In the Kali-yuga, for a cent, for the matter of taking a cent only he’ll give up his friendship with others. And even his own man, family man, relative, he’ll kill him to take that two cent or five cents.” Na raksisyanti manujah sthavirau pitarav api.

Satsvarupa: The guests are here.

Nitai: There are many guests here to see you.

Prabhupada: Yes, yes. “Even they’ll not give protection old parents.”

Yogesvara: To old parents.

Prabhupada: Old parents. (guests come in) Hare Krsna. Jaya. Thank you. Hare Krsna.

Jyotirmayi (translator): So I’d like to introduce you to these gentlemen and these ladies. He is… He’s called Pere Canivez. Pere Canivez, here, and he is the Secretary of the Bishops of France, and he would like to come and discuss with you. Here is the Pere Fransad. He’s a Christian priest also who, that I knew and so by his help Pere Canivez came. And he’d like to come with this lady who’s come, Madame Siaude. She’s living in India usually.

Prabhupada: Oh, you live in India?

Madame Siaude: Yeah, in the French part of, far eastern state, in Pondicherry.

Prabhupada: Pondicherry?

Madame Siaude: Yes.

Prabhupada: Oh, Aurobindo’s place.

Madame Siaude: Yes, I have been there a long time.

Jyotirmayi: And she was studying with M. Laconde, this gentleman who came yesterday. She’s very much studying Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya…

Prabhupada: Hm. Vaisnava philosophy.

Jyotirmayi: Vaisnava philosophy. And we’d like to invite also M. Misraki. He’s a compositor of music, but he also wrote book on life after death and many different things. So he was interested to come also. So they all came together.

Prabhupada: So they are all nice gentlemen and ladies. It is…

Jyotirmayi: And very interesting too, that the first question, one of the first questions that Pere Fransad asked me, was: “Do you believe in love of God, and that God is a person? Some people say that God is not a person, and we say God is a person.”

Bhagavan: So you can translate in French so that they can understand.

Prabhupada: At least Christians cannot believe in impersonal God.

Jyotirmayi: What?

Prabhupada: Christians, they cannot say that God is impersonal. (French) Because, because Christ is son of God. So the son is person. How the Father can be imperson? And in the Bible it is said, “There was word in the beginning.” That is God’s word. So if one has a word, then He’s a person. Word comes from the tongue and mouth. As soon as there is word, background is tongue and mouth. And then… The Christians pray in the church, “Oh, God, give us our daily bread.” So God has got ear so that He will hear and supply. But His personality, His word, His hearing, they’re all transcendental, nonmaterial. (French)

Jyotirmayi: So he says he agrees on this point. As you say, God is… We have a personal relationship with God.

Prabhupada: Yes, God is person. Brahmeti paramatmeti bhagavan iti sabdyate. Absolute Truth is realized from three angles of vision, Brahman, Paramatma and Bhagavan. Bhagavan is person, and Paramatma, all-pervading, localized, and Brahman, impersonal. Just like the sunshine is impersonal the sun globe, localized, and the sun-god person. [break]

Jyotirmayi: He says he’s accepting some of the things you are saying, but he’s doesn’t think that he’s obliged to accept everything.

Prabhupada: Huh? Yes. Everything is emanation from God. That is our Vedanta-sutra. Janmady asya yatah [Bhag. 1.1.1]. Whatever things are there… In the Bible, also there is… “Everything comes from Him, what is made.” Yesterday, we were reading? Yes. So whatever is created, that is made out of God. And the Vedic injunction is sarvam khalv idam brahma: “Everything is Brahman, the Supreme Brahman.” So the impersonal feature is an expansion of God’s energy. Just like the sunshine is expansion of the energy of sun, so the sunshine is resting on the bodily rays of the sun-god. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita, it is said, brahmanah aham pratistha. The resting place of the impersonal Brahman is God, Krsna. Find out this verse, brahmanah aham pratistha.

Nitai: Brahmanah aham…

brahmano hi pratisthaham amrtasyavyayasya ca sasvatasya ca dharmasya sukhasyaikantikasya ca

“I am the basis of the impersonal Brahman, which is the constitutional position of ultimate happiness, and which is immortal, imperishable and eternal.”

Prabhupada: Purport.

Nitai: “The constitution of Brahman…”

Prabhupada: Oh, oh. You have to explain.

Pusta-krsna: I’ll get another.

Bhagavan: In the meantime, we can translate from here.

Jyotirmayi: He’s asking when, how old are the oldest of the Vedic scriptures.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Jyotirmayi: He’s asking how old are the…

Yogesvara: How old are the Vedas?

Prabhupada: Vedas?

Yogesvara: These Vedic scriptures, we are reading, how are old are they, he’s asking.

Prabhupada: They are from the creation. Tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye. Find out this verse. Janmady asya yatah anvayat itaratas ca arthesu abhijnah svarat tene brahma hrda adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah [Bhag. 1.1.1]. Find out this verse.


janmady asya yato ’nvayad itaratas carthesv abhijnah svarat tene brahma hrda ya adi-kavaye muhyanti yat surayah tejo-vari-mrdam yatha vinimayo yatra tri-sargo ’mrsa dhamna svena sada nirasta-kuhakam satyam param dhimahi [Bhag. 1.1.1]

Prabhupada: Now who will translate? You, one by one, line, the translation you speak.

Nitai: O.K. “I offer my obeisances unto Lord Sri Krsna, the son of Vasudeva, who is the Supreme, All-pervading Personality of Godhead. I meditate upon Him, the transcendent reality, who is the primeval cause of all causes, from whom all manifested universes arise, in whom they dwell, and by whom they are destroyed. I meditate upon that eternally effulgent Lord who is directly and indirectly conscious of all manifestations and yet is beyond them. It is He only who first imparted the Vedic knowledge into the heart of Brahma.”

Prabhupada: And this is Vedic knowledge.

Nitai: “Who is the first created living being.”

Prabhupada: You read another verse, aham adir hi devanam maharsinam ca. Aham adir hi devanam. (loud noise in background) Never mind, never mind. Don’t bother. That’s all right.

Nitai: Oh, from the Bhagavad-gita? Aham…?

Prabhupada: Aham adir hi devanam. In the Bible it is said, “There was word.” That is Vedic knowledge.

Nitai: Aham adir hi devanam maharsinam ca sarvasah: “Neither the hosts of demigods nor the sages know My origin for in every respect, I am the source of the demigods and the sages.”

Yogesvara: You said also in the Bible it is said, “There is the word.”

Prabhupada: That word, sound, is the Vedas. So before creation, Vedas were there. So you cannot find out the history of Vedas. You find out the history where the creation began. Then, before that, Vedas were there. (French)

Yogesvara: He (the Bishop) says that he finds many things agreeable in this Vedic tradition, but he says that he thinks it might be a mistake to say that the Bible is exactly the same thing as the Vedas. He says there are still distinctions.

Prabhupada: Then, then, distinction, then it is to be considered which is perfect, the later edition or the original. (French)

Jyotirmayi: They are saying that according to their understanding, God revealed Himself little by little, and then at certain moment, He revealed Himself in His totality. But in the Vedic literature, there it is said that the whole knowledge was given at the beginning. Everything together. He said that he’s very much respecting your research, and that he’s asking that we should not say that these two research in Christianism and the Vedas, the scriptures, are the same. They are two different things. (French)

Yogesvara: He says, for example, the verse you read yesterday, that was similar to what is taught in the Vedas, but if we take the rest of that chapter from the Bible, we find some discrepancies, differences.

Prabhupada: What is that? (French)

Yogesvara: For example, in that chapter, it also says that the word of God became flesh and that flesh was the son of God, Lord Jesus Christ.

Prabhupada: But that means Jesus Christ is transcendental, not of this material world. (French)

Yogesvara: They say… They accept… They think that Lord Jesus, however, was a human being. He was spiritual, but also he was part of this material world.

Prabhupada: No, material world is part of Jesus Christ, but Jesus Christ is not part of material world. (French)

Yogesvara: He says that they had a human body, he had a material body.

Prabhupada: That human body appears like that, but he had no this material flesh and blood. A material body, how there can be resurrection?

Yogesvara: If it was material body, how is it possible for him to be resurrected? (French)

Prabhupada: Is that all right?

Jyotirmayi: They said it is by the acintya power of God.

Prabhupada: These, these rascals, they thought that “Jesus had a material body. Let us kill him.” So Jesus Christ bewildered them more, to remain rascal, that they will continue to think that Jesus had a material body.

Jyotirmayi: Bewildered them?

Yogesvara: Yes, he bewildered them more by saying: “All right, go on thinking like that.”

Prabhupada: That is their punishment. They remain always in darkness that Jesus had a material body. (French)

Jyotirmayi: So he’s saying that he respects your explanation, but that the Christians, they have another explanation, and that if we…

Prabhupada: But we must come to the reason before giving explanation. You cannot explain…

Yogesvara: What is the reason for his incarnation?

Prabhupada: You cannot explain whimsically. You cannot explain whimsically. If Jesus Christ is son of God, he has… That means he has got spiritual body. You…

French Woman: Yes, we accept that he got the has got spiritual body, but we say that he assumed also a material body.

Prabhupada: Now, then, then, another thing is: you accept Jesus Christ the only son of God, is it not? So when you pray in the church, you address God, “Oh Father.” Then why “only son”?

French Woman: We say that the son is…

Prabhupada: Then everyone is son.

French Woman: Yes, we say that this is the same God, yes.

Prabhupada: If I address God, “My father,” then I am his son. So why there should be “only son”? (French)

French Woman: Yes, we say that we are adopted sons. (laughter) (French)

Jyotirmayi: They say that they are sons, that all living beings are sons, but by adoption.

Yogesvara: Adopted son. Yes.

Prabhupada: So therefore these sons’ body and Jesus’s body cannot be equal. So adopted son has got material body, not the real son. (French)

Yogesvara: Their idea is that: Yes, of course, Lord Jesus, being the son of God, his body is spiritual, but because he wanted to take part in the life of the human beings on earth, he actually accepted a material body just to live among men.

Prabhupada: Why he should accept?

French Woman: But we have a vesper that says that he was died, that he was suffering, and things which show that…

Prabhupada: But his death… You think that he was died, but he resurrected.

French Woman: But the gospel says that he had died.

Prabhupada: That’s all right.

French Woman: You cannot… We accept the totality of the word, as you accept your word.

Prabhupada: No. No, no. “Died” means that is similar death. Janma karma me divyam. Just like Christ take birth from the womb of Mary. It appears like that, but actually that is not. (French)

French Woman: No, it is very important that the death of Christ is a real death. For us, it is the center of our faith.

Yogesvara: They say that the central point of their philosophy is that Lord Jesus actually died. (French)

Prabhupada: No, according to Vedic conception, even ordinary living being, he does not die. Na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20] You understand Sanskrit?

French Woman: No, I don’t understand it by hearing it. You have to read it.

Prabhupada: Na hanyate, does not die, hanyamane sarire, apparently, the body being dead, the soul is never dead. (French)

Yogesvara: So… Shall I explain that one? What the good Pastor—are they called Pastor?—describes is that in order for there to be a dialogue, we have to respect each others’ positions, not that we will try to convert the other. He says just as we respect you have an absolute faith in the Vedic philosophy, so also there must be respect that the Christian interpretation of the life of Lord Jesus and his death…

Prabhupada: Oh, I think I have better respect than him to Jesus Christ. I say he does not die. He says he dies. (French) So far respect is concerned, I have more respect than them. They want to see Jesus Christ dead. I don’t want to see him dead.

French Woman: No. Death and resurrection after, Jesus.

Yogesvara: There’s a resurrection.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Yogesvara: Excuse me. Perhaps at this time we can introduce Madame, Madame Devi?

Jyotirmayi: So we’d like to introduce Mrs. Devi, who came here also to meet you. She’s a very wonderful lady. She’s writing a dictionary of mysticism, and she did the whole first part on Western religions, and now she wants to do the following part on the Eastern religions. So she would like very much to talk in this book about ourselves, about the movement of Hare Krsna which is a big part of the Oriental religions.

Prabhupada: Hmm. Recently, there was a historical excavation that Jesus Christ did not die, and he, after crucification, he was taken to Kashmir.

Yogesvara: Kashmir?

Prabhupada: Yes. (French)

Yogesvara: Where was this? In a newspaper?

Prabhupada: Yes. In paper I saw. (French)

French Woman: But we are not under historical literally. We try to speak of mystical experience. This is exactly the subject of, that we did. We cannot discuss history because everybody has his own documentation.

Prabhupada: Yes. So I was very much pleased because I was very sorry that Jesus Christ was crucified. But when I heard this historical discovery, I was very satisfied. But one thing is that… Here, at least, in London, I have seen. There are so many churches vacant. (French)

Yogesvara: He says he was at your conference, last night and he was there when you described how human life is meant for knowing God. So now he wishes to ask you a question: What is our process for coming to know God?

Prabhupada: That is very simple. It is not at all difficult. Just like in your body, you are, the soul, important active principle… (to Jyotirmayi:) Explain. (French) Similarly, this huge, gigantic, cosmic manifestation must have some active principle. That is God. So where is the difficulty to understand God? (French)

Yogesvara: For example, in our prayers, in our studies, what is our…

Prabhupada: Now first of all, let us understand what is God. Then prayer. If you do not understand God, then what you’ll prayer? If we understand that there is the active principle, then the prayer we have already described, janmady asya yatah anvayat itaratas carthesu abhijnah: [Bhag. 1.1.1] “I pray to the Supreme Personality of Godhead Vasudeva who is the origin of all creation.” This is the active principle. There is. So… And how He is working? (To Jyotirmayi:) You have to explain. (French) In the beginning of Bhagavatam, I offering the prayer. So the process is that I offer my all respect to the Absolute Truth, Supreme Truth, from whom the creation has taken place, everything is resting, working nicely, and after annihilation, it will go there. And when you study what is the nature of the original source, it is said, abhijnah, cognizant. He knows everything. Just like I am the owner of this body, I, the soul, but still, I do not know how the body is working. I am eating, but I do not know how my eatables transformed into secretion, then goes to the heart, then… Of course, they have discovered something, but not fully. So I do not know what is going in within my body. I do not know how many hairs are there. But God knows everything, nook and corner of the whole universe. But if we compare ourself with God, that is impossible, because naturally we get knowledge from others, we may question, “Wherefrom God got knowledge?” Therefore it is stated there, svarat. He hasn’t got to take knowledge from anyone else. He’s independently full of knowledge. (French)

Pusta-krsna: That would be impersonal. (French)

Prabhupada: On the other hand, he imparted knowledge to Brahma, the first creation of this universe. That knowledge is called Vedic knowledge. That means Vedic knowledge is coming from God. And it is being distributed through Brahma. And he’s so mysterious that even learned scholars become bewildered to understand Him. And this material world, although it is temporary, it appears to be fact on account of energy, being energy of God. (French)

Yogesvara: She says that God is known as antaryami, the witness in the heart. Does that mean that we can have a direct experience of God without going through the scriptures.

Prabhupada: Yes. That is the practice of yoga. (French)

French Woman: I guess if you have the idea of prapatti, of surrender…

Prabhupada: Yes.

French Woman: …this is a way to God directly.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is… That is the real process.

French Woman: But it is not yoga. It is different from yoga?

Prabhupada: No, it is bhakti-yoga.

French Woman: Prapatti is different.

Prabhupada: Prapatti is bhakti-yoga.

French Woman: You take it in bhakti?

Prabhupada: Bhakti, yes. Prapatti means bhakti. Just like I can surrender unto you when I have got full faith and devotion unto you. Otherwise, I cannot. That is wanted. If we simply surrender to God, then everything is complete. Therefore in the Bhagavad-gita, the prapati is described, bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19], this word: “After many, many births of philosophical speculation or personal endeavor to understand what is God, when he’s actually wise, he surrenders unto Me.” And it is said next line, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah: [Bg. 7.19] “Vasudeva, Krsna, is everything.” When he understands this, then his knowledge is perfect. But such kind of mahatma, great soul, is very rare to be seen.” (French)

Jyotirmayi: So she said that in…, it is also explained that those who are not intelligent enough to study, or who are out of caste, so they cannot, they don’t have the right to study, then it is said that they can attain God directly by surrendering unto God.

Prabhupada: Yes, certainly. It does not require education, knowledge or anything. If he agrees to surrender to the lotus feet of God, then his life is perfect. That is stated in the Vedic literature, naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). “If one has surrendered himself to the lotus feet of God and worshiped Him, there is no more need of austerity and penances.” And naradita yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?). “If one has not learned how to surrender to God and worship Him, then all his austerities, knowledge, are useless.” Antar-bahih yadi hari sthapasata tat kim (?), “If one can see God within and outside, then where is the necessity of austerity?” And naradita…, nan tad yadi bahi hari sthapasata tat (?), “If one has not learned to see God within and without, then where is the value of his austerity and penances?” Therefore God realization is the only business of the human being. (French)

Jyotirmayi: So they agree totally with what you said. (French)

Yogesvara: (Translating) Well, first you said that, first we must learn about God and then we will know how to pray to God, but now you say that if one surrenders to God, one has no need to learn about Him first.

Prabhupada: But unless one… We say, “Unless you have learned what is God.” That means you have to learn God. Then religion… Religion means… What does he say?

Yogesvara: He says, “But God reveals Himself to us.”

Prabhupada: Yes, that is fact. If you are actually devotee, then God will reveal. That is… That is stated in the Vedic language, atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih: [BRS. 1.2.234] “You cannot understand the form, name, attributes, pastimes of God by these blunt senses.” These senses, present (the ten) senses, cannot realize. Atah sri-krsna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih. Indriya means sense. Then how to realize? Sevonmukhe hi jihvadau. When you begin service with your tongue, then gradually God reveals. So tongue means you can do two business with the tongue. One is talking, and one is eating. So if you engage your tongue in glorifying God, and if you eat God’s prasadam, then you realize God. Therefore these young boys and girls from Europe and America, they have been, they are being taught, “Use the tongue for Krsna. Chant Hare Krsna, and eat Krsna prasadam.” And as practical result, although they are very young, still, they have realized God, Krsna, far advanced than anyone else. They have forgotten all material things: illicit sex, meat-eating, intoxication, gambling. They are simply devoted in the service of Krsna. So because they have engaged their tongue in chanting Hare Krsna mantra, they have forgotten all kinds of intoxication, meat-eating. The American Government spent millions of dollars to stop their LSD habit. They could not stop even one man. But as soon as they come to Krsna conscious, immediately give up. (French)

Jyotirmayi: They say they are very glad for all of this.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much. So let us join together and push on this movement. (French) Chanting the holy name of God. You don’t… I don’t say that you take Krsna, the name of… If you have got any other name, you can chant. (French)

Yogesvara: So he says, therefore, as you are glorifying God, we hope you will think of us just as when we glorify God, we will think of you.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Jyotirmayi: He was very sad yesterday when there was some people making noises.

Prabhupada: Yes, that is the difficulty. They are… Gradually, the population of the world are becoming urchins.

Pusta-krsna: Urchins. Very degraded.

Jyotirmayi: (French)

Prabhupada: That I was discussing from Bhagavatam, how people will degrade in this age. And this is due to lack of God consciousness. (French)

Yogesvara: He says your lecture yesterday evening was very objectionable to many of the young people who made so much disruption. They found many of the things you were discussing…

Prabhupada: Because the young people gradually degrading. They do not acknowledge authority. (French)

Yogesvara: Yes. When they saw how much we were speaking authoritative, they rejected it. They reacted.

Prabhupada: So that is their degradation, due to degradation. They cannot accept any authority. And knowledge cannot advance without authority. (French) But one thing I may say that the disobedience to the authority has begun from their fathers.

Yogesvara: From?

Prabhupada: From their fathers. Yes. Because in the Bible it is said, “Thou shalt not kill,” and their fathers indulge in killing business. So naturally their generation has degraded. (French)

Bhagavan: What did he say?

Yogesvara: He said whether there was much discussion after the meeting last night.

Bhagavan: Oh, yes. There was…

Yogesvara: Yes, they stayed until midnight.

Bhagavan: The total attendance yesterday was close to two thousand people. And at least one thousand people stayed until twelve o’clock.

Prabhupada: Accha? Twelve o’clock.

Bhagavan: Oh, yes. The manager of the hall was pleading with us to ask them to leave. He wanted to go home. (French)

Yogesvara: He says that’s very good that so many stayed to find out more information, to ask, to discuss.

Prabhupada: Yes, any reasonable man will find subject matter interesting. There is a statement of Caitanya-caritamrta, sri-krsna-caitanya-daya karaha vicara: “Just consider and then give your judgement after studying the mercy of Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu.” It is never recommended to take it blindly. Karaha vicara: “Just judge with reason and argument.” And vicara karile citte pabe camatkara: “If you consider it with logic and judgement, then you’ll find it is sublime.” (French)

Bhagavan: So an interpretation of a scripture, whether it be Bible or Bhagavad-gita, cannot simply be an opinion, but it must be based on logic and reason.

Prabhupada: Yes. Just like in the Bible it is said, “There was only word in the beginning.” So in the beginning, there was word. That means that word is not the word of this material creation.

Yogesvara: Just like these Guru Maharajis. They say you cannot chant the name Krsna because it’s simply a material sound. They say the name is material.

Prabhupada: That’s it. The rascal does not understand what is this sound. He does not see that there was word before creation.

Pusta-krsna: Also in Revelation in the Bible it states that in the spiritual world there is no need for sun and moon…

Prabhupada: Yes.

Pusta-krsna: …because the body of God is giving off light.

Prabhupada: No, the residents also, they are bright.

Pusta-krsna: Yes, illuminating.

Prabhupada: Just like in the sun planet, all the inhabitants, they are fiery body. (French)

Jyotirmayi: They said that they told me before they came that they could stay only one hour, so now they to take…

Prabhupada: Accha? One hour we have passed? Thank you very much. Hare Krsna. Thank you. Hare Krsna. Distribute this flower. Come on.

Yogesvara: Bring the chair so that she can sit. (some guests leave)

American man: I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalah. I would like to ask you what you think of the Hebraic Kabbalah.

Prabhupada: I do not know. What is that?

Yogesvara: He asked, “Do you have an opinion on the Hebrew scripture, the Kabbalah?”

Prabhupada: No, I have neither read it, I do not know it. I do not know.

Yogesvara: Oh, Madame Devi doesn’t have much time. Perhaps she had some…

Madame Devi: (French)

Prthu Putra: She’d like to know about the problem of death, what’s happening at the time of death.

Prabhupada: Yes. So as you prepare yourself… Because… Just like in dream we think what we have actually performed, similarly, the mental condition at the time of death will be prepared as we are doing in our usual life. Do you understand English? (French)

American Man: I’m American.

Prabhupada: Oh, that’s nice.

Madame Devi: (French)

Prthu Putra: She believes that the thoughts are more important than the acts.

Yogesvara: Thoughts. She asks, she says, “Perhaps thoughts are more important than actions.”

Prabhupada: Yes. Thoughts are the subtle action. (French)

Madame Devi: (French)

Prthu Putra: She says, “Compared to the problem of the Bayonne, what’s happened in Bayonne, the thoughts are more important than the action because the thoughts…”

Bhagavan: “The thoughts begin the action.”

Yogesvara: “The thoughts begin the action, determine the actions.”

Prabhupada: Yes. Therefore we give thoughts beyond your present thoughts from the authoritative Vedic scripture.

Madame Devi: (French)

Yogesvara: “Do you think that in the future all religions and all these spiritual groups will come together and form one group.”

Prabhupada: There is no “all religion.” There is only one religion. One who deviates, he creates another religion. Religion means there is God and we should be obedient to God. This is religion.

Madame Devi: (French)

Jyotirmayi: She says, “Therefore is not necessary to go by one’s special path?”

Prabhupada: No, there is no special path. There is only one path, that “God is there, God is great, and we are all subordinate to God.” That’s all. No, if you… They accept this?

American Man: I think that each man finds his own way, and that some people, because of the blood they have and because of who they have been before, can go…

Prabhupada: No, no, do you accept this principle, that “God is great, and we are all subordinate to Him”?

American Man: My principle is the light, that there is only the light. If some people wish to call it God, they can call it God.

Prabhupada: Yes.

American Man: If they wish to call it Jesus Christ, they can call it…

Prabhupada: No, we, we, we also say that. We are all life, and God is the supreme life. That’s all.

American Man: God, for me, is a word. It’s a word which no one can understand, which no one can say what is God.

Prabhupada: Simply you understand.

American Man: I understand the light.

Prabhupada: No, no, you understand. You say, “God is word.” That means you understand God.

American Man: No.

Prabhupada: Then why do you say, “God is word”?

American Man: I say God cannot be explained with words.

Prabhupada: No, no, why do you say? If you do not know God, how do you say like that?

American Man: Because I…

Prabhupada: If you do not know the subject matter… You say that “God is not knowable,” then how can you speak of God?

American Man: I do not speak of God.

Prabhupada: No, you are speaking that “God is word.” You say, “God is word.”

American Man: No, I say God is only a word, and that’s why I cannot speak of God, because it’s a word and it cannot explain.

Prabhupada: But you have got this word. Why you speak all these contradictory things?

American Man: No. I say that I cannot speak of God because it is a word…

Prabhupada: That means you do not know what is God. First of all accept.

American Man: It is light. I speak of the light.

Prabhupada: Then, then you know God. You say either way, that you know… Sometimes you say you do not know; sometimes you say you know.

American Man: No, no, no.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Bhagavan: Sometimes you say you know the light. That means you know God. For you, God is light.

American Man: If you wish to call it “God…” No, no, no, no. I say it once. I will say it once and once only.

Prabhupada: Now, now, you say that God is light.

American Man: So we’ll understand.

Prabhupada: Do you say, “God is light”?

American Man: Yes.

Prabhupada: Then you know God. Then why do you say, “God cannot be known”?

American Man: I say that “God” is a word.

Prabhupada: You say, “light” or “word.” What is the… What is the definite…

American Man: I believe in what I feel right here, and that is God for me.

Prabhupada: That means you feel sometimes something else. That is God.

American Man: I feel the light here.

Prabhupada: Anywhere you feel, the first of all let us know…

American Man: I feel the light here.

Prabhupada: Yes, anywhere. Light is here also.

American Man: And that’s all there is.

Prabhupada: That is… That is all right. Light is here also, not only…

American Man: Light is here. Light is this table.

Prabhupada: Yes. Yes.

American Man: Light is this floor. Light is everything.

Prabhupada: So that’s all right. Then why do you say that you do not know God? You know God is light.

American Man: Because for me, God is merely a word. How can you explain God with a word?

Yogesvara: I think you’ve been defeated.

American Man: No, no, I don’t think I’ve been defeated.

Prabhupada: Yes.

American Man: And I’m not warring. I’m not making war with you. I simply want to understand…

Prabhupada: No, no, you… You fix up one thing. You say, “God is light.” That word light is God? Or that…

American Man: I do not say God is light.

Prabhupada: Yes, you said that.

American Man: I say there is only light. I say there is only light.

Prabhupada: Only light?

American Man: Yes.

Prabhupada: So that is God.

American Man: I do not speak of God; I speak of light.

Prabhupada: Then you do not know God. You accept one position.

American Man: I say there is light.

Prabhupada: That’s all right. But you do not know whether light is God.

American Man: What is God? Explain to me what is God.

Prabhupada: (aside:) Talk with him. He’ll simply waste my time.

American Man: If you can explain to me what is God, I would appreciate it.

Prabhupada: Just go and take him. You go and he’ll explain to you, please.

American Man: He cannot explain to me.

Prabhupada: Then you go away. Please. What can I do?

American Man: It’s as you wish.

Prabhupada: I cannot waste.

American Man: If you cannot explain to me what is God… I speak of light, so…

Prabhupada: But you know everything. What can I explain? You know everything.

American Man: I speak of light. I don’t say I know everything, but I speak of light, that’s all. That’s all I said.

Dhananjaya: You’re wasting our spiritual master’s time. What is the point in coming here if you’re just going to talk nonsense? Please come.

American Man: Oh, I’ll come. (leaves)

Bhagavan: Why was he brought in in the first place. Anyway, we can continue, but…

Madame Devi: (French)

Yogesvara: “Is there some, any qualities, in the sense that some people have more receptivity towards the divine than other people?”

Prabhupada: Yes. That I explained, sattva-guna, rajo-guna, tamo-guna. Those who are in sattva-guna, they can understand easily. Those who are in rajo-guna, they have got difficulty. And those who are in tamo-guna, they cannot. (French)

Madame Devi: (French)

Yogesvara: “Is this degree of covering, whether they are in goodness, in passion or in ignorance, is that a question of their physical body? Is it a question of their hormones or chemical state? Is it a chemical state that some people are more covered than others by the modes of nature?”

Prabhupada: Covered means with some dirty things. That’s all.

Yogesvara: By past karma.

Prabhupada: Just like the sun is covered with the cloud. That list is like that.

Madame Devi: (French)

Yogesvara: She asks if by repeating the mantra, the name of God, it has more…

Prabhupada: You become purified. Purified.

Yogesvara: You give the example all the time of the more you polish the mirror, the more the light can shine. (French)

Madame Devi: (French)

Prthu Putra: She says, “Therefore we have to repeat a lot of times the name of God every day.”

Prabhupada: Hm. Yes.

Madame Devi: (French)

Prthu Putra: She is very happy to meet you and she thanks you.

Prabhupada: Thank you very much.

Pusta-krsna: Tell her also that at the time of death one who fixes the mind on the name of God will go back to God.

Madame Devi: Hare Krsna.

Prabhupada: Hare Krsna.

Bhagavan: So it’s time for Srila Prabhupada’s massage. [break]

Prabhupada: In old age he’ll be crippled like that. Then he said that “I am also going to be like that? No. What is the value?” Then he began meditation, how to stop old age. Then he gradually became very great, saintly person, and studied Veda, karma, and by bad karma, one becomes subjected with material tribulation, and the most of the bad karma, he thought, was killing of animals, so he wanted to stop this. That is Buddha’s… “Stop animal killing.” Sadaya-hrdaya darsita-pasu-ghatam.

Yogesvara: He’s visnu-tattva?

Prabhupada: No, he’s not visnu-tattva. He’s jiva-tattva.

Yogesvara: Saktyavesavatara.

Prabhupada: Hm.

Devotee: Did you say three? One or three?

Prabhupada: What is that?

Devotee: When you offer something… You once said in Delhi, “Either one or three.”

Prabhupada: That is neck bead. No. Yes. Yes, not… Yes, yes. Arati. Arati.

Devotee: Yes, Srutakirti had offered my son two cookies.

Prabhupada: No, no.

Devotee: And I think you said, “Either one or three.”

Prabhupada: No, no. I said…

Devotee: Two or four?

Prabhupada: Two or four.

Devotee: Is there some reason behind this?

Prabhupada: Yes. Three is offered to the enemy. If I offer something, three, that means “You are my enemy.”

Devotee: So how many sticks of incense? Two?

Prabhupada: There is no such…

Yogesvara: Now, one thing is that we accept Buddha as incarnation of Krsna on reference from Vedas, but Buddha denied the value of the Vedas.

Prabhupada: That is… When we pray, offer pray, it is stated that that is his, one of the qualifications. Sada… Nindasi. Nindasi yajna-vidher. The animal sacrifice is recommended… Some of the sacrifices or all of them… So that animal sacrifice was not meant for eating. Just to give them new, rejuvenated life by the Vedic mantras, to test that whether Vedic mantras are being chanted properly. And because at the Kali-yuga there is no such expert brahmana, all sacrifices are forbidden. So later on, as they deteriorated, they began to offer sacrifices, and if anyone wants to stop it, they will say, “Oh, it is recommended in the Vedas.” Just like these rascals, Christian: “Oh, Christ ate fish. Therefore we must maintain slaughterhouse.” Just see how rascal they are. Supposing Christ ate somewhere fish. Therefore they would maintain regularly slaughterhouse of cows. This is their brain.

Yogesvara: When you were here last year, there was a meeting at the Indian Tourist Bureau, a press meeting, and there was a man who came to meet you at that time who is president of the court of Paris. And he was supposed to be a Buddhist. Do you remember this gentleman? He said to you that “Meat-eating… We must eat meat in the West. Maybe in India, because of the climate, you can get away with that.”

Prabhupada: That is rascaldom, another rascaldom. He’s a first- class rascal. That was the support by Vivekananda. He was eating everything. All the Ramakrishna Mission, they say like that, “Oh, without meat-eating, without drinking, you cannot stay.” All rascals. Therefore, the conclusion is, all rascals, the religious, social, all rascal. If they want to be saved from their rascal position, this is the only, Krsna consciousness. If they don’t want to be saved, if they want to go to hell, who can check? Atma-han. Atma-han means “self-suicide.” Suicide, yes. If you cut your throat yourself, who can save you? So they are all these like, all, all these Buddhists, Christian. We may not speak very strongly. They will be our enemies.

Bhagavan: There’s other guests here.

Prabhupada: Shortly. But this is the position. They’re all rascals. But we don’t hate anyone. We want to raise them. Actually they’re all rascals. Do you accept this philosophy…

Yogesvara: Yes.

Prabhupada: …that they are all rascals? Hare Krsna. Let them come forward. Jaya.

Bhagavan: Please come. Sit. Please come sit. (end)