Conversation
with Devotees
His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
March 31, 1975, Mayapur

Acyutananda: …stuff His ears up when anyone would refer to Him as God. He wants to be known as a devotee. But we worship Him as God, in the same line as Radha-Krsna. So how do we understand that?

Prabhupada: Hm?

Acyutananda: Lord Caitanya doesn’t want to be praised as God, but we worship Him as such.

Prabhupada: That is a warning to the future fools and rascals that even God does not like to be addressed as God. But we address Him as God on the strength of sastra. Krsna-varnam tvisa krsnam sango-pangastra…, yajnaih sankirtanaih. Here is the incarnation of God. That is… Sastra says. So out of His humbleness, He may say like that, but we should know by following the acaryas, by sastra. Sadhu-sastra-guru vakya. Guru accepts Him God; sastra accepts Him God; sadhu accepts Him God.

Acyutananda: The people say that just like Ramakrishna, the disciples presented Him as God, but He never said He was God.

Prabhupada: But then where is the sastra? Three things: the devotee or saintly person, sastra and guru. He has no guru. He has no support from the sastra. (laughs) So he’s a fool, rascal number one, and he is God. He was a illiterate priest. He had no knowledge of sastra. Besides that, in the sastra it is said that “Those who are worshiping other demigods, their intelligence is lost.” So he was worshiping Kali. So he had no intelligence or spiritual realization, and he became God? So these things can be accepted by other fools and rascals. But those who follow sastra, they will reject immediately.

Acyutananda: What if they say Caitanya Mahaprabhu was a devotee, He worshiped the Supreme Lord, kirtana, but His disciples say He’s God?

Prabhupada: Eh?

Acyutananda: Simply the disciples have said He’s God.

Prabhupada: No. That… Why do you…? I have already said that He’s supported by sastra. He’s supported by sastra. He’s supported by learned scholars, means, in the transcendental scholars. And supported by guru. We follow our guru. So guru says; sastra says; saintly persons say. Therefore we accept.

Acyutananda: They interpret that verse in another way.

Prabhupada: That, the rascals do. They are… What is their value? When these rascals says that worshiping Kali, one becomes God…

Acyutananda: No. No. Vaisnavas.

Prabhupada: Eh?

Acyutananda: The Ramanuja and the Madhva, they say, krsna-varnam means “black.” Krsna-varnam tvisa krsnam: “But He is effulgent.”

Prabhupada: Hm? No. We should follow our acaryas. Why…

Acyutananda: No, but how to convince them that? They will never accept Cai…

Prabhupada: No. “You are also acarya, but we have got our own acarya. Why should I follow you?”

Acyutananda: But how to convince them?

Prabhupada: Convince means they will not be convinced. Krsna-varnam, krsnam varnayati. One who is describing Krsna, that is krsna-varna. And krsna-varna does not mean black. And again it is confirmed, tvisa akrsnam. So how can they say, “black”? By complexion, He is akrsna. So how they can interpret that He’s black?

Acyutananda: That it says… They interpret krsna-varnam…

Prabhupada: That is foolishness. That is foolishness. Krsna-varnam means krsnam varnayati iti krsna-varnam. If it is krsna-varna, then how it is again confirmed, tvisa akrsna?

Acyutananda: That is His effulgence.

Prabhupada: That is his interpretation. Tvisa, tvisa akrsnam. And in the Srimad-Bhagavatam it is said, idanim krsnatam gatah, suklo raktas tatha pitah idanim krsnatam gatah. So God has other colors also. White and red and yellow. So here is yellow. Tvisa akrsna. So we have to follow Jiva Gosvami. What these rascals, we have to follow? We don’t follow. If you have got a interpretation, we have got better interpretation. Why shall I accept you? My mother says, “Here is your father.” I shall accept that, or somebody says, “Here is your father” Whom shall I accept? Mother’s version. Evam parampara-praptam. We should accept the parampara acaryas, not whimsically anyone’s interpretation you have to accept.

Tamala Krsna: Prabhupada, in the Caitanya-caritamrta, it’s very clear that if one does not accept Lord Caitanya Mahaprabhu, then actually he cannot worship Krsna properly.

Prabhupada: That’s a fact.

Tamala Krsna: Now just to carry on with Acyutananda Maharaja’s point, it would seem then that the Ramanujis and the Madhvites, they don’t accept Caitanya Mahaprabhu as the Supreme Personality of Godhead. So how can they possibly…

Prabhupada: Therefore they cannot understand the higher rasas.

Tamala Krsna: Oh.

Prabhupada: Unnata-ujjvala-rasam, they cannot understand.

Tamala Krsna: No, they can understand santa-rasa.

Prabhupada: Yes.

Tamala Krsna: Dasya-rasa.

Prabhupada: That’s all.

Tamala Krsna: But not sakhya.

Prabhupada: Not more than that. They cannot meditate. There is no paternal rasa or madhurya-rasa in their community.

Tamala Krsna: And the Vallabhites, they also… Actually they don’t accept Caitanya Mahaprabhu. They say Vallabhacarya is their Mahaprabhu. And they worship in…

Prabhupada: Vallabhacarya was rejected by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, I know that. So actually…

Prabhupada: He was simply proud of his education. He had no realization.

Tamala Krsna: You explained that…

Acyutananda: Do they worship in vatsalya-rasa or just show?

Prabhupada: Show, formality.

Acyutananda: It’s not genuine.

Tamala Krsna: It’s not genuine.

Prabhupada: Some of them say that “Krsna, becoming, before becoming polluted.” They say like that.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, they do.

Prabhupada: That means childhood age, there is no pollution, and youthhood age, Krsna’s, it was polluted by the gopis. This is their version. Krsna becomes polluted.

Tamala Krsna: Yeah, they say like that.

Prabhupada: Do they say like that?

Tamala Krsna: Yes. I have spoken to them, in Hyderabad, that Bala Krsna dasa. And another thing they say is that Radharani’s name is not mentioned in Bhagavata. So this whole emphasis on Radha is not correct.

Acyutananda: Is not correct.

Prabhupada: That means they cannot understand radha-krsna-pranaya-vikrti. They cannot understand. And therefore in their community you won’t find any high-class devotee. Simply official sentiment. That’s all.

Tamala Krsna: I… Is Vallabhacarya…? So he cannot be considered in proper line.

Prabhupada: Because Vallabhacarya was rejected by Caitanya Mahaprabhu.

Tamala Krsna: He’s in the line with…

Prabhupada: He accepted him as learned scholar, but He did not accept him as very highly realized soul.

Tamala Krsna: No, you explained that before. His guru, Vallabhacarya’s guru, is… He’s in Madhavendra Puri’s line?

Prabhupada: Hm? No.

Acyutananda: Visnuswami…

Prabhupada: They come in the Visnuswami. I do not exactly know who was his immediate guru.

Tamala Krsna: Oh. I’m just trying to clear these points up because, I remember when I was preaching in South India, this discussion came up, that… Just like Madhavendra Puri, he found the Deity of Gopala, and you’ve explained…

Prabhupada: That is our Gaudiya. Madhavendra Puri is Gaudiya Vaisnava.

Tamala Krsna: Yes. You explained how he was worshiping the Deity. Now, that Deity of Gopala…

Acyutananda: Srinathji.

Tamala Krsna: Srinathji. So that Deity was eventually handed over?

Prabhupada: Yes.

Acyutananda: During Mohammedans, the Deity was moved.

Tamala Krsna: And Vallabhacarya…

Acyutananda: I heard that after the death of Vallabhacarya, Sanatana Gosvami told his son to worship the Gopala Deity. He engaged his son, Vallabhacarya’s son, as a pujari in Govardhana. So then it came into their hands.

Prabhupada: Hm? That may be, yes.

Acyutananda: Then, when the Deity was moved, it was moved to Nathadvara, and now they, now they are…

Prabhupada: When the Deity was given to them, they could do anything.

Acyutananda: Yes. ’Cause his son was all hopeless that “The acarya is dead and my father is dead.” He didn’t know what to do. But they have written… They have pictures. They draw pictures of Srinathji on Govardhana, and Vallabhacarya is worshiping Him, all over.

Tamala Krsna: That is a big… That’s the reason. It’s a big mistake. I had a discussion with one man. So I was stating that Madhavendra Puri found this Deity, Gopala, but their teaching is that Vallabhacarya found the Deity. I said, “No, Madhavendra Puri handed the Deity over later on for worship, but it was he who found the Deity and originated the worship on Govardhana, and all the villagers…”

Prabhupada: It has been confirmed in the court that this Deity belongs to Gaudiya Vaisnavas. There was big case amongst themselves, and the court gave judgement that “This Deity belongs to the Gaudiya Vaisnava.”

Acyutananda: Oh. When was that court case?

Prabhupada: Say, about four, five years ago. No, about ten to fifteen years ago.

Tamala Krsna: Recently.

Acyutananda: Who represented the Gaudiya…?

Prabhupada: Nobody, but from the history it was found that it belonged to Gaudiya Vaisnava. That… In Delhi one lawyer is there. He knows. He told me. (long pause)

Tamala Krsna: In our society, some devotees have an idea to spend money by employing professional men to advertise our society in so many different ways through advertising campaigns, etc. My idea is that our money should be spent on direct preaching. In other words, that can’t…

Prabhupada: Then we are spending advertisement, for?

Tamala Krsna: Well, sometimes I know… Just… I mean they hire professional firms to assist in public relations work.

Prabhupada: Not in… What is that?

Tamala Krsna: As an example, last year at Ratha-yatra, two thousand dollars were spent to hire a professional group to assist them in making up the advertisements and other things, giving them guidance, general assistance…

Prabhupada: If you get really assistance, there is no harm. Just like sometimes we go to the court; we pay to the lawyer because we are not expert. In that sense, it can be spent.

Tamala Krsna: But cautiously.

Prabhupada: Yes. For nothing, because you have got money, no. Unless it is urgently or absolute necessary, you should not spend.

Tamala Krsna: And there should be some… There should be some limitation. We should not spend tens of thousands of dollars…

Prabhupada: No.

Tamala Krsna: …in such a way.

Acyutananda: They shouldn’t listen to the decisions of these professional men if they say, “Don’t do this and don’t do that.”

Tamala Krsna: No.

Prabhupada: The president should be restricted that “You cannot spend more than this amount without sanction of GBC.”

Acyutananda: When we were in Bombay, there was an organization man, that one gentleman who was discussing with Bhagavan about the general organization of the Society, that you suggested we talk to him…

Prabhupada: So many, they came. They simply talk.

Acyutananda: There was one who…

Prabhupada: They do not help.

Acyutananda: No, when we were talking to him, he said that every temple should have its budget, and over that budget, the GBC should sanction. They have two accounts.

Prabhupada: (Hums) Hmm…

Acyutananda: Prabhupada… [break] Mahamsa Maharaja got the customs duty waiver for the buses from Germany… [break] What about the bullock carts?

Prabhupada: Bullock cart is very good for India.

Acyutananda: But that’s for the small villages. The big towns, they’re very far apart.

Prabhupada: Hm hm. Well, you are not supposed to go to the small villages. (end)