Morning Walk Prabhupada: …seeking the necessities of the body, but kastan, with great labor. This is civilization. Kastan karma. The ultimate end is sense gratification, which the dogs and hogs also enjoy without any hard labor, and they think that after working very, very hard, twenty- four hours, and driving the motorcars in three hundred miles speed, this is civilization. The end is the same—sex, that’s all, which the cats and dogs enjoy in the street. And they have made this civilization, you see. Working very hard, and enjoy the sex. Is it not? Satsvarupa: Yes. Prabhupada: What else they are getting? Satsvarupa: Well, they say that civilization is more than that. It’s… Prabhupada: What is that? Satsvarupa: Well, culture… Prabhupada: What is that culture? Your culture is the same—sex. As soon as there was no light, immediately there was pregnancy. That is the statistic record. Brahmananda: Oh, in the blackout. Devotee: New York blackout. Prabhupada: Yes. “No business. Come on. Let us enjoy sex.” That’s all. This is their civilization. Yan-maithunadi-grhamedhi-sukham hi tuccham [SB 7.9.45]. Most abominable sex life—this is civilization. Nalini-kanta: They say that in the human form of life we can ejoy sex life better than the cats and the dogs. Prabhupada: That is imagination. They enjoy without any restriction, and you have to make so many arrangement. You require apartment, nice bed, nice this, so many. So where is the better facility? You have to work for it. They haven’t got to work. They get in the streets sex life. Brahmananda: But now, they’re also saying that this is good. Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmananda: To have sex in the street. Prabhupada: Yes, yes. Brahmananda: Without any rules. (?) Prabhupada: They are coming to that point, the hippies. Openly they are having sex life, on the street, on the beach. [Break] Madhudvisa: We may enjoy while we are here now. If we think about the future, then that means we are taking our mind off the present. Prabhupada: That’s all right. Then close all these universities, school, colleges. Close. Madhudvisa: Well, that’s also for enjoyment at present time because we can get together and have social life. Prabhupada: No, it is for future, not for present. The child does not want to go to school, but the father forces him to go for future. Jayadvaita: That’s tangible, though. Prabhupada: Eh? Jayadvaita: That’s tangible. You can see. If somebody gets a university education, he gets a job, this, that, but in Krsna consciousness you can’t see how he’s going back to Godhead. Prabhupada: And besides that, why you are keeping money in the bank, do good bank balance? Madhudvisa: Because it’s giving interest. Prabhupada: Yes. That means for future. Madhudvisa: No, I can enjoy the interest in the present. Prabhupada: No, you don’t enjoy… That the future you may not be in difficulty; therefore… Why insurance? Why the insurance company? Trivikrama: Also, in Krsna consciousness you can see the result immediately. You become more happy. Prabhupada: No, they say there is no future. Then why you are paying insurance fees? There are so many insurance company. Everyone is thinking of future, consciously or unconsciously. Pusta Krsna: After I die, my children will carry on for me. Prabhupada: Eh? Pusta Krsna: After I die my children… Prabhupada: That is also future. “Your children” means future. You enjoy. Why do you care for your children? You enjoy. Madhudvisa: Well, it’s granted that we are all thinking about the future, but isn’t it possible for us to take the best of what the material world has to offer and also make the best of what the spiritual world has to offer, simultaneously? Prabhupada: Yes. Madhudvisa: What is the necessity of renouncing everything? You can’t be… Prabhupada: Not renouncing, not renouncing. Just like our (?) think of future, that is also for present benefit. Future, future… The best intelligence is that just like one is afraid of suffering in old age, future. So there is. That is not ignorance. That is future life. So karmis are thinking future life should be very comfortable. They want to go to the heavenly planets. They therefore act very piously, perform yajnas. That is all future. So real problem is that we are going to get another body in future. So what kind of body we shall get? That is intelligence. Body you have to get. Tatha dehantara-praptih. So one should be very intelligent—“What kind of body I am going to get?” Brahmananda: Why can’t we have sense gratification and God also at the same time? Prabhupada: That is Bhagavad-gita, that aviruddho-kamo ’smi. “Sense gratification which is not against religious principles, that sense gratification I am,” Krsna says. We do not stop sense gratification, but we want to regulate sense gratification like a gentleman, not like hogs and dogs. That is human civilization. Sense gratification like hogs and dogs, not required. Sense gratification… People are following that. Although they are so degraded, still, they have not sanctioned as yet to have openly sense gratification on the street like hogs and dogs. That is regulated. That’s still going on. But because the civilization is gliding down to animalism, they don’t want this restriction. That is the hippies’ protest, that, “Why this convention required? Let us enjoy like hogs and dogs.” That is advancement. Visnujana: The scientists are helping them do that also. Prabhupada: Eh? Visnujana: The scientists are helping them to do that. Prabhupada: Yes. Pancadravida: What shall we… Why should we enjoy sense gratification like gentlemen? Prabhupada: Eh? Pancadravida: Why should a person… Prabhupada: Why do you do it? That is the, already there. Why don’t you have sense gratification on the street? Pancadravida: Well, they’re already having. People are already having. Prabhupada: Not having very freely, not very freely. Brahmananda: It’s against the law. Prabhupada: Ah, against the law. Pusta Krsna: Anyway, if I’m always worried about the future, how will anything get done now? If I’m always worried about the future, how will anything get done now? Prabhupada: No, we gave that you are not to think of future foolishly. Anyone who is going to school, it does not mean that he is not taking care of his body. The school-going is future, but still he’s taking care of his body. Hare Krsna. [break] Ramesvara: …of survival of the fittest. If I have a lot of sense enjoyment, then that is God’s will. Prabhupada: But nobody is fit to survive. (laughs) That is the real problem. You are struggling for surviving, but you’ll not survive. That is nature’s law. Ramesvara: Well, they say that within this life… Prabhupada: Because… There is. But these rascals, they do not know how to survive. If you have got death, then where is your question of surviving? Pancadravida: So why not eat, drink, and be merry because tomorrow you die? Prabhupada: Yes. That’s all right. That, animals are also doing. You can do that. Pancadravida: But the animals are happy. Prabhupada: But why do you say survival? The animals do not think of survival. Pancadravida: I didn’t mention survival. He did. Prabhupada: They are free. They are never worried about survival or death. Never. Pancadravida: So the animals are happy… Prabhupada: Yes. But you… Pancadravida: But human beings are unhappy. Prabhupada: So therefore they are becoming generally, gliding down to animal life. Pancadravida: So isn’t that better? Prabhupada: Yes, for you. (laughter) Pancadravida: If the animals are happy and the human beings are unhappy, why not live like an animal? Prabhupada: So yes, they are coming to that, animal life. Then why do you call human civilization? Pusta Krsna: But if I stop all these activities, then there will be no more pleasure. If I stop all these activities… Prabhupada: No, pleasure, you do not know what is pleasure. You rascal, you do not know what is pleasure. Just like the hog. He’s also enjoying pleasure, eating stool. So your pleasure is like that. You eat stool and enjoy life. That is your standard of pleasure. Madhudvisa: But who…? We can say that because we’re above the hogs. Prabhupada: Yes. Madhudvisa: But what do the hogs think? Prabhupada: Hogs think like that. Madhudvisa: They think they’re enjoying. Prabhupada: If you become hog, you will also think like that. Madhudvisa: But let us say just from our human standpoint… Prabhupada: Then the human standpoint is… If a hog eating stool, you hate it. Madhudvisa: We hate it. Prabhupada: Yes. Madhudvisa: But he doesn’t hate it. Prabhupada: Therefore… Because he is hog. You become hog. You’ll not hate it. Madhudvisa: But what if I am human being? I am enjoying this material life… Prabhupada: Then why do you hate that? Madhudvisa: Well, I don’t hate what I’m doing now, myself. Prabhupada: No, if you are given a plate of stool, would you like to eat? Madhudvisa: No. Prabhupada: Then why? Why do you hate? Why do you hate? Madhudvisa: But I’m not a hog now. Pusta Krsna: They eat the hog. Madhudvisa: But I am not a hog. Prabhupada: And therefore you hate. Madhudvisa: I hate it because I’m not a hog. Prabhupada: Yes. Madhudvisa: If I was a hog, I would like it. Prabhupada: Yes. So become hog. Madhudvisa: No, I don’t want to become hog. Prabhupada: Then you’ll have to hate. Madhudvisa: No, I want to stay as a human being and enjoy here. Prabhupada: Then it is… (?) Then you’ll hate. Madhudvisa: But someone else has to hate it, not the person who is actually enjoying it. Prabhupada: Who is enjoying stool? Human being? Jayadvaita: They may say that “The hog… It’s all right if I become a hog. So it doesn’t matter if I become a hog or a dog because I may hate the hog’s enjoyment while I’m a human being. When I’m a hog, I’ll also like it.” Prabhupada: So do that. Jayadvaita: So it’s all right. Prabhupada: The nature will give you the chance. If you want to enjoy stool next life, it will be available.(?) You enjoy. That is nature’s law—“If you like this, come on. Take it.” Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrdese ’rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Krsna is situated in everyone’s heart, and if He sees that “This rascal desires like this,” immediately He orders to the material nature, “Give him a body like hog. He wants to enjoy.” Brahmayan sarva-bhutani yantrarudhani mayaya. This is already stated. If you want a hog’s body, immediately it is ready. You can get a dog’s body, hog’s body. Similarly, if you want devotee’s body, that will be offered also to you. Ye yatha mam prapadyante. As you desire, Krsna is ready to give you. Brahmananda: But if the standard is happiness, and the hog is happy and the devotee is happy, then what is the distinction? Prabhupada: That distinction the hogs and dogs cannot make. That is for human beings. Pusta Krsna: What happens if a human being can’t distinguish… Prabhupada: That is called maya, that he cannot make any distinction. Both the same. That is maya. Maya-mohitah. Just like on the street, there it is signboard: “Keep to the left.” The hogs and dogs cannot do it. But human beings can do. That is the distinction between hogs and dogs and human being. Human being is supposed to make distinction. And the hogs and dogs are supposed not to make any distinction. Tamala Krsna: Sign: “No dogs allowed.” Prabhupada: Eh? Tamala Krsna: The sign “No dogs allowed” is not meant for dog. Madhudvisa: Someone would say that that example just means that the hog doesn’t speak your language. Prabhupada: Eh? Madhudvisa: The hog doesn’t speak your language, it doesn’t mean that he doesn’t discriminate… Prabhupada: Therefore language, civilized language, is not meant for the dogs and hogs. Madhudvisa: No, it’s just different language. Prabhupada: No different, not different language. I mean to say that rules and regulations, books, they are not meant for hogs and dogs. Even their own language, it is said, they’ll not understand. Pancadravida: So you say that two kinds of people enjoy life, the paramahamsas and the great fools. So what’s wrong with being a great fool? They’re also enjoying. Prabhupada: Yes. You become. That’s nice. If you want to remain a great fool, there is no checking you. You can go on. Pancadravida: Well, then what, what is the check on fools? What is the check on fools? Prabhupada: There is no check on fools. You can do anything. Pusta Krsna: How do we know that the animals don’t know all of these great truths? Prabhupada: Eh? Pusta Krsna: How do we know that the animals don’t know all of these truths? Prabhupada: Because they cannot follow. If you call the dogs and hogs, “Please come here. There will be Gita lecture,” they’ll not come. Nalini-kanta: We have already had a hog’s body. So we didn’t like it. Otherwise, why would we change? Prabhupada: No. By the process of nature automatically evolves. That is evolution. They do not know. But nature giving him chance, this type of body, this, more intelligent, more intelligent, more intelligent… Then you come to the human form of body, very good intelligence. And if he does not utilize it, again he becomes a hogs and dog. Go round, merry-go-round. Merry-go-round. If you don’t take… You have got now. By evolution you have got this human form of body. If you do not utilize it properly, then again you become hog. So again, for millions’ years. So… Rupanuga: They say, “We don’t remember. We don’t remember being a hog, so what is the harm?” Prabhupada: Eh? Rupanuga: We don’t remember being a hog, so… Prabhupada: That is hoggism, that you do not remember. Therefore you are hog. Because you do not remember, therefore you are hog. That is the distinction. Pusta Krsna: Why did God create death in order to stop our enjoyment? Prabhupada: What is that? Pusta Krsna: Why did God create death? Prabhupada: No, therefore you are under the control of God. You understand it. So you cannot become free. Therefore death is there, ultimately. You are thinking you are free of the kingdom of God, or laws of God. “No, you are not free. You’ll die and you’ll accept another body and according to My decision.” That is God. This is a question like “Why government created punishment? Why not enjoy ourself without any punishment?” It is a question like that. And that cannot be. It is not possible. That is the proof that there is God. Trivikrama: Death. Prabhupada: Eh? Trivikrama: Death is the proof that there is God. Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmananda: And the other part is that then there is another body. Prabhupada: Yes. Brahmananda: Death and then another body. Prabhupada: Another body, immediately. Tatha dehantara-praptih. That is the tangible proof that there is God. You have to die and accept another body. Just like the proof of government is that you are acting irresponsibly, you must be arrested or be punished. That’s all. Tamala Krsna: But they say it is just a proof of nature, not a proof of God. Prabhupada: Yes, nature is instrumental, just like jail is instrument. But the proprietor of the jail, conductor of the jail, is government. Jail is not acting independently. By the government’s direction. Similarly, the nature is working by the direction of God. Mayadhyaksena prakrtih suyate sa-caracaram [Bg. 9.10]. That is stated. Nature is not independent. Just like the nature is that this lump of matter will lie down here, but if God desires, it can fly on the sky. That is God’s will. Nature is not independent. Then it would have remained here. Just like Lord Ramacandra collected stones, and it was floating. According to law of gravitation, how it can float? Brahmananda: Well, they say that’s just a story. Prabhupada: Hm? Brahmananda: They say that’s… Prabhupada: That is nonsense. Pusta Krsna: The planets are floating. Prabhupada: That is nonsense. How these planets are floating? That is also story? (laughter) Devotee: How long would the planets float if it was put in the hands of a scientist? Prabhupada: Hm? Devotee: If they were in charge of enforcing the law of floating the planets… Prabhupada: Let them do that. See. That was done by Hiranyaksa. He brought down the planet, in the ocean, but Krsna again rescued. Tamala Krsna: Yes, and killed him. Prabhupada: And killed him. Pancadravida: So in the Gita verse it says that this body is a field of enjoyment. Prabhupada: Where it is? Pancadravida: Thirteenth Chapter. Prabhupada: What does it say? Pusta Krsna: The field of activities. Prabhupada: No, he said, “field of enjoyment.” He said. What is this nonsense? Tamala Krsna: He was changing the Gita. Prabhupada: Preacher (?) Where it is taken? Pancadravida: Well, Krsna says that… Prabhupada: Where says? Why do you speak like nonsense, “This body is for enjoyment”? Pancadravida: No, field. Prabhupada: Eh? Pancadravida: Krsna says that the living entity is the enjoyer of the field and the body is the field. Prabhupada: That is another thing. Pancadravida: So the living entity can enjoy his desires in that field according to his past activities. Prabhupada: No, it is not enjoyment. It is worker, just like this field is for working, and the farmer is working. That does not mean he’s enjoying. He’s working. This field is given for working. But this working does not mean that he’s enjoying. And because this working, working on the field is not enjoyment, therefore nobody’s coming. They are going to the factory. They are going to the factory. Had it been enjoyment, then they would have come. But no, they go to the factory. And they are prepared to purchase from the farmer at any cost to avoid this working. That is the difficulty at the present moment. If you are asked that “You work here,” I don’t think you’ll agree. It is not enjoyment. Will you take a plow and do…? No. Why? If it is enjoyment, why not? Pancadravida: The work is too hard. Prabhupada: Ah, that’s it. That’s it. Pancadravida: So what I meant… This body is a field. Prabhupada: Yes, body is field is… The example is given. Just like this field, to work with this body is not enjoyment. Everyone is suffering with body, so many people, always suffering threefold miseries. That is not enjoyment. It is enjoyment for the fools, rascals, who are covered by the illusory energy. Pancadravida: In the Gita you use the term field. You use “the enjoyer of the field.” Prabhupada: That is his breathing period. (?) One who is suffering, where is enjoyment? Every field, every body, is given to the living entity because he wanted. Just like some of you want to become hog, so that field of activities, hog’s body, will be given to you. Enjoy it. You want it, and Krsna is there within your heart. He understands that you want it—“Take it.” That’s all. “Now enjoy. Become hog.” Brahmananda: One question, Prabhupada? Prabhupada: Hm. Brahmananda: If the planets, they have always been floating, but the stones of Lord Ramacandra has put in the ocean, they are still not… Where are they? Prabhupada: Eh? Brahmananda: The stones that Ramacandra put, they are not still floating. Prabhupada: Floating, that is Ramacandra’s desire. Pancadravida: What happenned to the stones? Prabhupada: That Ramacandra knows. You go there. [break] Tripurari: “…enjoyment comes from the fact that he thinks he’s saving the world. He’s out preaching. Your enjoyment is simply subtle sense gratification.” Prabhupada: Hm? Tripurari: They say that our enjoyment is subtle sense gratification. We feel we’re saving the world. Therefore we get some pleasure from that. Prabhupada: Yes. If you say sense gratification, senses are there, and senses want satisfaction, but you can know the proper way of satisfaction. That we are teaching. We do not say that “Make your senses blunt.” But you enjoy properly. That is stated, tapo divyam yena suddhyet sattva hy asmad brahma-saukhyam anantam. You are wanting sense gratification, but it is being checked up on account of your diseased condition of life. Therefore you purify yourself. Then you enjoy senses perpetually. This is the injunction. We are not stopping sense gratification. But you are trying to gratify senses in your diseased condition. Just like if you are feverish, you cannot enjoy to eat a rasagulla. It will be not tasteful. So cure yourself and enjoy rasagulla. That is our program. Ramesvara: We are sometimes accused of being very puffed up because we are, they, we, we think that we can have a direct relationship with God, that God will speak to us. So we are accused of being very puffed up for thinking that we can have a direct relationship with God. Prabhupada: Oh, that is natural for the fools because they cannot think of it, that one can talk with God. But God says, tyaktva deham punar janma naiti mam eti: [Bg. 4.9] “After giving up this body, the devotees come to Me.” Then where, what you will do there? He’ll talk or not talk? Ramesvara:: There he’ll talk. Prabhupada: Yes. Then? There is process, how to talk with God. But these rascals, they do not know. They think it is all imagination. They do not know. Ramesvara: But we are so insignificant. Why should God waste His time talking with us? Prabhupada: Yes. Because you are sons. Although you are insignificant, you are God’s sons. So He likes to talk with His sons. Just like a small child. Everyone knows that he cannot talk. Still, father tries to make him talking, to enjoy. Mayapura-candrodaya Temple is teaching all these fools and rascals how to talk with God. That is our mission. [break] Devotee: …citizens in the state are punished by the government by being put into the prison house and that similarly, in this human form of life, if we are irresponsible, then we are punished by God by birth and death. So what about the man who is responsible for his family and executes his duty ni… Prabhupada: Well, that is… Cats and dogs have also responsible for the family. What is credit for him? Devotee: Well, what actually is responsibility? Prabhupada: No, no. The dog also allows the nipple to be sucked by the cubs. That is family maintenance. So what credit do you get by family maintenance? Why do you specially claim any benefit by maintain…? That is being done by the cats and dogs. Do you think that the animals do not take care of their children? Then if you take, then what is the difference between him and yourself? You are also the cats and dogs. Your main business is to become Krsna conscious. If you forget that—you remain cats and dogs—then you’ll become again cats and dogs. Punar musiko bhava: “Again become a mouse.” The mouse was given the chance to elevate gradually to a tiger, and when he became tiger, he wanted to devour the saintly person. And he said, “All right, again you become mouse.” That is also… You are given the chance of self-realization. If you do not do it, then again become cats and dogs, maintain your family. Pancadravida: So if… (end)
Conversation
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
April 5, 1975, Mayapur