Garden Conversation Prabhupada: That is special advantage of this age. People are very much fallen from spiritual standard, and to fall down from the spiritual standard means to spoil the humanity. There is no education on this point. That is Vedic culture. Most of them, they do not believe that there is soul, spirit soul, and human life is meant for understanding it and make progress on that platform. Most of them, they do not know. There is no education, I think so. Everyone reads Bhagavad-gita, mostly, but they do not understand the first lesson. Dehino ’smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13]. Nobody understands. What is your understanding about this transmigration of the soul? Indian man (1): We consider that man gets life after death according to his karma. Prabhupada: Yes. Do you believe on this? Indian man (1): We have this belief. Prabhupada: Then what is the preparation? If we believe that we have to get another life after death, then what preparation we have made? Indian man (1): Preparation? We… The real truth is we don’t know. Prabhupada: That is I am saying. Indian man (1): This is what we would like to know from… (microphone rattling) …the learned people. Prabhupada: Yes. Yes, that is our duty, provided you want to learn it. But practically they are not interested. That is the pity of the situation. They… Nature’s law is there, but they do not care for the nature’s law. They are so irresponsible. prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahankara-vimudhatma kartaham iti manyate [Bg. 3.27] Everything is being done by nature’s law, and we are strictly under nature’s law. Still, we are thinking independent. Indian man (1): Nature’s laws are inexorable. Prabhupada: Yes. We cannot surpass. Daivi hy esa gunamayi mama maya duratyaya [Bg. 7.14] This nature’s law is so strict, you cannot disobey. Indian man (1): We can’t bend it. It is un… inevitable, inexorable. Prabhupada: Yes, inexorable. Yes, yes, inexorable. Indian man (1): And nobody can interfere? Prabhupada: No. Indian man (1): God alone. Prabhupada: God can do anything. He is all-powerful. That is only… Indian man (1): But does He interfere… Does he intervene in our actions? Prabhupada: Who? Indian man (1): I mean, God, does He… Prabhupada: Hare Krsna. God interferes if you are a devotee. Otherwise, you have to undergo the laws of nature. Karmani nirdahati kintu ca bhakti-bhajam [Bs. 5.54]. Karma, according to your karma, you are conducted by the laws of nature. Just like if you touch fire, the laws of nature is: it will burn. Even a child touches the fire, there is no excuse. The laws of nature will not excuse a child, that “This child does not know it has touched the fire. Let it not be burned.” No. Ignorance is no excuse. You cannot surpass or avoid laws of nature. It is not possible. If you can eat one chata,(?) and if you eat little more, then there will be trouble. Indian man (1): Then what about miracles performed by so many people? Prabhupada: That is rascaldom. Nobody can play anything. Magician also can make. Indian man (1): Interfere with the laws of nature. Prabhupada: Nobody can. It is all foolishness, all rascaldom. They are all rascals and who understands miracle, they are also rascals. Laws of nature cannot be changed. Indian man (1): There may be several laws which we don’t know. Prabhupada: There are many laws. What do you know? You do not know anything. (chuckles) Indian man (1): We do not know. Then I say those miracles may be possible according to those laws that we don’t know. Prabhupada: There is no miracle. If you touch fire, it will burn, that’s all. Indian man (2): Swamiji, is bhakti-marga enough to have liberation? Prabhupada: Yes. Bhakti-marga… First of all, you must know what is liberation. What do you mean by liberation? Indian man (2): Jivan-mukta. Prabhupada: No, explain. Indian man (2): When feeling one with the consciousness, world consciousness, universal soul. Prabhupada: Universal soul is spirit, and you are also spirit. That sense, you are one. But universal soul is different from you. Just like Krsna says in the Bhagavad-gita that there are two souls within the body. One soul is the individual soul, and the other soul is the Supersoul. That Supersoul is universal soul, and the individual soul, you are individual soul. As soul, the quality is the same, but you are individual soul, and Lord is universal soul. There, in the Bhagavad-gita it is stated clearly, ksetra-ksetrajna. Ksetrajna is the soul; ksetra is this body. So ksetrajnam capi mam viddhi sarva-ksetresu bharata: “I am also ksetrajna, soul, but sarva-ksetresu. You individual soul, you know the pleasure, pains, of your body, but you do not know what are the pleasure and pains of my body.” Do you know? Indian man (2): No, sir. Prabhupada: Therefore you are individual. You know the pleasure and pains of your body. I know the pleasure and pains of my body. But there is another soul; that is Supersoul. Sarva-ksetresu bharata. He knows your pleasure, pains. He knows my pleasure and pains. He knows everyone’s pleasure and pains. Isvarah sarva-bhutanam hrd-dese ’rjuna tisthati [Bg. 18.61]. Therefore, as soul they are one in quality, but in consciousness they’re different. He knows everyone’s pleasure and pains; I know my pleasure and pain. Indian man (2): My humble prayer was that by doing japa, by doing meditation, by doing bhakti-marga, need we go to jnana-marga also, or bhakti-marga is enough by itself? That was my humble supplication. Prabhupada: Bhakti-marga is enough. Bhakti-marga means it includes everything. Without jnana, there is no bhakti. The jnana is called brahma-bhuta; that is real jnana. If you… Aiye. If you understand your position, then it is jnana. If you do not understand your position, then where is jnana? Do you follow? Therefore Bhagavan says, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. When… So long you are ajnana, in ignorance, you cannot be happy. You cannot be happy. But when you are in jnana, then you’ll be happy. That is the symptom of becoming jnani. Brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. Atma becomes very happy. Na socati na kanksati. He has no more any lamentation and hankering. There are two things in this material world. We are hankering after something which we do not possess, and we are lamenting for something which we possessed and we have lost. This is the disease, material disease. So when one comes to the platform of jnana, then he has no more such disease, hankering and lamenting. Here the whole world is going on, lamenting and hankering. So brahma-bhuta means na socati na kanksati and samah sarvesu bhutesu. And here, so long we are on the material platform, we are not samah sarvesu bhutesu. We are thinking, “You are different from me; I am different from you. My interest is first.” You are thinking your interest is first and so on, so on. So not samah sarvesu bhutesu. But when you become actually jnani, brahma-bhutah, samah sarvesu bhutesu. When you are in distress, na socati na kanksati, samah sarvesu bhutesu, prasannatma, then bhakti begins. Mad-bhaktim labhate param [Bg. 18.54]. So bhakti is not so easy thing. Indian man (1): Bhakti depends on jnana. It cannot be immediately. Prabhupada: Bhakti means when one understands his real position, means all misunderstanding gone. Indian man (3): Ajnana. Indian man (4): When there is that last sloka in the Eighteenth adhyaya, sarva-dharman parityajya mam ekam saranam vraja [Bg. 18.66]. Prabhupada: How you can do unless you understand your position? When you understand your position, that “I am eternal servant of Krsna,” then you can do that. If I say immediately, “Mr. Such-and- such, you give up everything. You become… Surrender unto me.” Will you do? No, you’ll not do. But when you understand your position—“Yes, it is my duty”—then you’ll do it. Indian man (4): No, brahma-bhuta is… Prabhupada: Brahma-bhuta means first of all you understand your identity. You are now identifying yourself as Indian, or as brahmana, or as ksatriya, or white, or black, and so many things. Indian man (4): My first identification is my own body. Prabhupada: Yes, that is ajnana. So long you are identifying with the body, you are no better than the animal. So we are doing that. We are fighting. “I am Indian. You are Englishman. You are this. You are that. You are…” Simply we are fighting, like cats and dogs, they fight. So that is ajnana. How you can be prasannatma? So when one becomes actually situated in spiritual life, brahma-bhutah prasannatma [Bg. 18.54]. That is the… In this way when you make further progress, when you actually understand that you are eternal servant of God, then you surrender. Bahunam janmanam ante jnanavan mam prapadyate [Bg. 7.19]. This situation takes many, many births to cultivate. And when he actually understands, jnanavan— not fools, rascals—then mam prapadyate, vasudevah sarvam iti sa mahatma sudurlabhah [Bg. 7.19]. That mahatma is very rare to be found. So bhakti is not so easy. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. It is not so easy. It takes many, many births to come to the understanding that vasudevah sarvam iti [Bg. 7.19]. Sa mahatma sudurlabhah. Mahatmanas tu mam partha daivim prakrtim asritah bhajanty ananya manasah [Bg. 9.13]. This is mahatma. Indian man (4): Does the soul which passes from body to body, does it or he experience the pains and pleasures of my body? Prabhupada: Certainly. You just strike one dog—”Ka! Ka! Ka!” Why? Does not feel pain? And Sir Jagadish Chandra Bose has proved even the trees, they feel pains and pleasure. Indian man (4): It may be the soul which… Prabhupada: It is the stage. It is stage. Just like the tree. If you cut, it does not feel so much pains and pleasure as a human being. It is the development of consciousness. So in human form of body the consciousness is developed. Therefore he can understand what is his position. And therefore for human being there are sastras—the Vedas, the Puranas—to understand his position. The tree cannot take advantage of the instruction of Bhagavad-gita. A cat cannot take advantage. Indian man (4): Even an animal cannot. Prabhupada: Yes. So if we do not take advantage of the opportunity of understanding my identification, then we are committing suicide, jumping like cats and dogs, that’s all. Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. Such persons have been described as go-kharah. Go means cows, and khara means ass. Indian man (3): Khara means? Prabhupada: Ass. I think this khara is word is used by Urdu. Phir vamusthi vrsti kharah. (little discussion in Urdu or Hindi) Prabhupada: Sa eva go-kharah [SB 10.84.13]. One who identifies his body. Indian man (5): Mudha, you explained last night. Prabhupada: Yes. This is going on. That’s it, that we should take advantage of this human form of life, and we must know what is our position, why we are in this material world. I am this body or so… So many things. This is called brahma-jijnasa. But nobody is interested. That is the effect of bad education. And especially in the Western countries, they do not believe in the next birth. They do not believe, although it is very clearly pointed out by Krsna, dehino ’smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara: [Bg. 2.13] “The body is changing from baby body, is coming, becoming a boy, a boy is becoming a young man, young man is becoming middle-aged man, and the middle-aged man is becoming old man.” The body is changing every moment, and still, they do not believe. Every one of us, we know that we had a childhood body, a boy’s body. Where is that body? That body is gone. I am existing, but the body is not existing. Therefore I have changed body. This simple word, they do not understand. Therefore they are called mudha. Krsna is pointing out, dehino ’smin yatha dehe kaumaram yauvanam jara, tatha dehantara-praptih [Bg. 2.13] Similarly, there is after this, after so-called death, the soul changes to another body, and He still further clearly says, na hanyate hanyamane sarire: [Bg. 2.20] “After the destruction of this body, the person is not killed. He’s not dead.” Na jayate na mriyate va kadacit. These things are there, but nobody understands. And they’re very good scholar, big, big student of Bhagavad-gita. But these things they do not understand. And they’re writing very, very big, big comments. Indian man (4): In theory everybody believes it, that na hanyate hanyamane sarire [Bg. 2.20]. Prabhupada: No. What is that nonsense theory? We must know it actually. What is the use of theory? Theory is no good. You must know factually. That is knowledge. Theory is not knowledge. Anyone can put forward some nonsense theory. That is not knowledge. Knowledge means factual. That is… So we have to take knowledge… Indian man (4): How To attain that knowledge then? Prabhupada: That also, Krsna is explaining. Why don’t you take it? The knowledge is there, but you refuse to accept. So what is fault? Whose fault it is? Indian man (4): How should I persuade myself that that…? Prabhupada: No, if you don’t persuade, nobody can induce you to persuade. If you are obstinate, who can persuade you? Indian man (4): Well, the devil persists. (?) I try to believe he persists. (?) Prabhupada: But you must agree. Therefore it is advised, tad-vijnanartham sa gurum evabhigacchet, samit-panih srotriyam brahma-nistham [MU 1.2.12]. Tad viddhi pranipatena [Bg. 4.34]. First of all, you have to surrender. But if you don’t surrender, how you’ll get knowledge? If you think you are very big man, then how you get knowledge? Indian man (4): No, we don’t think that we are big men. Prabhupada: No, no, everyone thinks that, not you. I don’t say particular. Everyone thinks, “I know everything.” Indian man (4): No, no. We think that we are ignorant, petty creatures. Correct. And we know… Prabhupada: But if you think so, that you are ignorant petty creatures, then you take knowledge from the authority. Why don’t you take it? What is the meaning that you think you are ignorant petty creature, at the same time, when the most learned person is giving you knowledge, Krsna, you don’t take it? What kind of…? Indian man (4): But there are so many authorities presented to me. But there is the Bible, there is the Koran, there is… Prabhupada: No, first of all, you are born in India. Why you are jumping to Bible? (laughter) This is another foolishness. You take care of your own house. You are jumping like monkey to Bible. (laughter) Indian man (4): In our own house there are quite a few dharmas. Prabhupada: Therefore acaryavan puruso veda. You have to follow the acaryas. In our country there are acaryas, Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, Visnusvami, Caitanya Mahaprabhu, those who are recognized authority. Acaryavan puruso veda. In the Bhagavad-gita, acaryopasanam. You have to worship the acarya. Indian man (6): You have to look up your… Prabhupada: Yes. The acarya’s parampara is there. Evam parampara-praptam imam rajarsayo viduh [Bg. 4.2]. Indian man (4): There is no dearth of acarya in India. There is acarya Rajneesh, there is acarya… Prabhupada: No. There is acarya, and there are fools also. Acarya is there, and fools are there also. The agnostics are there. They will not accept any acarya. You accept some acarya. Why you become skeptic? At least, we have to accept Krsna as the supreme acarya. Why don’t you accept Him? If you are embarrassed whom to select acarya, so who can be better acarya than Krsna? Why don’t you accept Him? That means you want to avoid under some plea. Otherwise there is acarya. If you don’t believe in other acarya, you take at least Krsna who is accepted by all the acaryas. Either Ramanujacarya, Madhvacarya, or anyone, will they not accept Krsna as the supreme teacher? Whole world is understanding Krsna is the supreme teacher. At least at the present moment they are accepting. We are selling our books daily five to six lakhs’ worth, only these Krsna consciousness books. And in our country we do not accept Krsna as the supreme acarya. What is this? That is our misfortune. Krsna is recognized acarya. There is no doubt about it. Indian man (7): Sir, (Hindi?) Prabhupada: Krsna also says, acaryam mam vijaniyat. Acaryam mam vijaniyan navamanyeta karhicit [SB 11.17.27]. Acarya and Krsna— identical. Who is acarya? Who speaks on behalf of Krsna, he is acarya. Acarya means one who speaks on behalf of Krsna. That is acarya. Indian man (4): Because Krsna never wrote any book… Prabhupada: He spoke. Indian man (4): …therefore we have to depend upon His… Prabhupada: No, no. Krsna did not write, but Krsna spoke. If you speak and if I note down and write, what is the difference? Because you did not see, therefore it is not good? He spoke and I note down, er, you note down. Then it is as good. Krsna was speaking, and Sanjaya was noting, and that was written by Vyasadeva in the Mahabharata. So what is the difference? Indian man (4): That is one disclosure. That is one only Bhagavad-gita. Prabhupada: That is sufficient. First of all, you understand few lines of Bhagavad-gita; then jump over other. About this only, one line, tatha dehantara-praptir dhiras tatra na muhyati [Bg. 2.13], if you simply understand this one line, your life will be successful. Indian man (3): Kindly explain this line. Prabhupada: This line, it is clear, that you have to change this body. Have you got any objection to take it? Indian man (4): No. Prabhupada: Then why you are not serious, “What kind of body I am going to get?” Here is a body, tree. If you are going to accept a body like this, just how miserable it will be. Why you are not afraid? Just like if you want to go from here, Chandigarh, to Delhi, you have to arrange so many things. So what we are doing, that we have to change this body? And there are 8,400,000 different types of bodies. Which body I am going to get? Why we are not serious? We are spoiling our life. Indian man (4):. That eight million, is that fixed thing, that…? So many life, so many animals species and genera… have become extinct. Prabhupada: 8,400,000 species. jalaja nava-laksani sthavara laksa-vimsati krmayo rudra-sankhyayah paksinam dasa-laksanam Everything is there. Indian man (4): Those that have become extinct, dinosaurs and those… Prabhupada: That is rascals’ theory. Nothing extinct. Indian man (4): This is not correct. Prabhupada: No. Just like he says that man comes from monkey. Monkey is extinct? Where is the question of extinction? There is no question of extinction. There are different species of life, and according to your karma… Just like there are first-class, second- class, third-class compartments. If you pay for the first-class, you enter into first-class. You cannot say that third-class is extinct. According to your karma… Karmana daiva-netrena jantur dehopapattaye [SB 3.31.1]. According to… As you pay. If you pay for third-class, you enter into third-class compartment. If you pay for first-class, you enter into first-class. So it is according to your karma you’ll get a body. Why it should be extinct? Indian man (4): Because it is extinct. We find there are those… fossilized… Prabhupada: You do not find. This is only… You simply repeat Darwin, that’s all. You do not find. You do not see anything. You simply hear from Darwin. You have taken Darwin as your authority. But you don’t take authority, Vedas. That is your fault. Indian man (4): Darwin had drawn that theory from observations… Prabhupada: Wherefrom he has drawn? He has speculated only, like a rascal. That’s all. Wherefrom he got this thing? He has said that “It is my speculation.” Speculation is no knowledge. You can speculate in your own way. Knowledge gathered from the authority, that is real knowledge. Hare Krsna. [break] We have published even in Chinese language. European. Indian man (8): With your comments or…? Prabhupada: No, comments means to explain the original verse. Indian man (8): You have explained also in that copy? Prabhupada: Yes. Indian man (8): From where we can get, sir? Prabhupada: You can get from our temple here. Or from the pandal. (end)
with His Divine Grace A. C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada
October 14, 1976, Chandigarh